The concept of the Elect.

[Amy.G]

Well, you know when Paul said before the foundation of the world, he really mean during our lifetime...

Maybe Van's been around since the creation.

Now that's OLD! LOL

 

[Mark_13]

Van [#14]

"Please address my position as to what Romans 8:33 says about the timing of election.

In Romans 8:33 we see that no one can lay a charge against God’s Elect, again consistent with being chosen during our lifetime unto salvation. On the other hand, this verse precludes the elect being charged has having a nature of children of wrath, and requires election after we are conceived with a nature of children of wrath for we were just as the rest of mankind, Ephesians 2:1-3."


(Rom 8:33) Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

(Eph 2:1-3) And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

I get your point - wasn't able to answer it. Maybe someone else can.

 

[Amy.G]

I get your point - wasn't able to answer it. Maybe someone else can.

You can't answer it because it doesn't make any sense. Rom 8:33 says nothing about being elected in one's lifetime.

 

[jbh28]

:thumbsup:

You can't answer it because it doesn't make any sense. Rom 8:33 says nothing about being elected in one's lifetime.

:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy.G
You can't answer it because it doesn't make any sense. Rom 8:33 says nothing about being elected in one's lifetime.


the comment on the verse is incoherent....it has nothing to do with eph2 at all. the whole post is foul.

 

[OldRegular]

Well, you know when Paul said before the foundation of the world, he really mean during our lifetime...

Thanks "jbh28", I never looked at it that way. It is all crystal clear now! "Before the foundation of the world" means "during our lifetime".:thumbs:"Before the foundation of the world" means "during our lifetime".:thumbs: Of course James, or was it Peter, did say Paul was hard to understand! Until Van came along, that is.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Mark_13]

Here's his reasoning on Rom 8:33 and Eph 2:1-3 (to play the devil's advocate for the moment - no offense Van):

The Romans passage says who will bring a charge against God's Elect. The Ephesians passage says (to the elect) that previously you were dead in tresspasses and sins, children of wrath, etc.

So Van's question would be, how could all those terrible things apply to the elect while they were elect since Romans says who will bring a charge against the elect. Therefore, they must have become elect after having previously been under the curse of Eph 2:1-3

----------------
I have an answer in mind now that I've thought about it - but I'll give someone else a chance.

 

[convicted1]

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Matthew 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.


Edit: I'm not saying I agree with Van, but just wanted to show that Christ is God's elect redeemer.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Hey, save me some popcorn. Don't hog it all to yourself. :laugh:

 

[preacher4truth]

Mark_13,

You say:

The passage does not say that foolish or weak individuals, i.e. human beings, were chosen. It says foolish things were chosen. Abstract things do not have a temporal existence. They are conceptual and timeless.

and you also say:

Just to continue where I left off in #11,

Concerning 1 Cor 1:26-28, I pointed out that it was foolish and weak things that are chosen - the passage does not say people, it says things, in fact it says it repeatedly. Why, ask yourself, the repeated reference to things as opposed to people - wouldn't it indicate conceptual abstraction (as I indicated previously).

Friend,

Your strict interpretation to focus on a word "things" is too strict and is forcing the verse out of context in order for you to make a point that is not there. The entire context supports that he is referring to persons that God has chosen, as persons are the subject of the text.

A transition is seen from v. 26, speaking of persons, then the word "but" (as in, God hasn't chosen many wise &c but has instead chosen weak things &c) carries that point of the persons on into v. 27. It's just an expressive language, not too be taken so strict and in so doing you've taken this verse out of its intended context and the intended meaning has been blurred by your interpretation.

- Peace

 

[Van]

Hi Mark, I will offer my point by point rebuttal in a later post, but had to immediately respond to this from you:


I get your point - wasn't able to answer it. Maybe someone else can.

I just wanted to say thankyou from my heart. Someone with your committment to honesty is rare, you may be one of a kind.

 

[Van]

Reply to Misrepresentation:

Let's condense the OP. Noncalvinism: God elects a class of individual according to his merits. Calvinism: God unconditionally elects individuals according to His own will and sovereign choice.

God elected a target group, those His Redeemer would redeem, when He elected His Redeemer, therefore He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. Who would the Redeemer redeem? Those whose faith in Christ God credits as righteousness, which is according to His own will and sovereign choice.

Calvinism cannot be defended without (1) ad hominems, (2) misrepresentations of opponents views (3) redefining words to alter scripture or (4) misunderstanding or misrepresenting the underlying Greek grammar.

In the quoted post we get a number 2.

 

[Van]

In Matthew 22:14, at the end of the parable of the Marriage Feast, where the King looked over those called to the dinner, and chose to reject someone not wearing appropriate clothing, the text reads “For many are called but few are chosen.” I think the idea is that some who came were unwilling to trust in Christ, to so to speak, put on His protective propitiation. But no matter what, clearly those chosen were called, teaching election occurs during our lifetime.

I do not recall a rebuttal to this point, people are called before they are chosen individually. And those called but not chosen lacked something the King was looking for. Hence, this parable teaches an individual conditional election during our lifetime after we are called by the gospel.

 

[Van]

Would you agree that this principle is most aptly and succinctly illustrated in scripture by the parable of the Sower and the Seed. A sower is just randomly tossing seeds around and whether those seeds germinate and grow or not is all contingent on specific deterministic factors - was the soil deep enough, where there rocks present, did some birds come along steal the seeds. Now what in the parable correlates to the will of a human being. All the parable talks about are factors external to a human being - cares of this life, obstacles, malevolent entities, etc.

This appears to be a rebuttal to my view of Matthew 13:1-30

Lets see if we can apply or clarify the principle of many are called but few are chosen. Yes, the call, the seed is presented to all four soils. But only three understand it. Of the three that understand it, all were drawn to Christ by God's lovingkindness, for this is love that He died for us while we were yet sinners. But although the second soil only received the gospel superficially, he liked what it offered in benefits, the second soil did not make a heart felt commitment and so when the going got tough, he fell away. And the third soil also understood, was drawn, received and even made a heart felt commitment but Jesus just became one of the third soils priorities, for he kept other treasures in his heart as well and those other treasures choked out the commitment to Christ. But the four soil understood, was drawn, received, made a heart felt commitment, and tossed out every hindrance in his heart to picking up his cross and following Jesus. So only this one of four soils after being called, was chosen.

As far as internal/external lets say they had different life experiences, the first soil having hardened his heart such that he could not even understand the gospel, but for the others, the internal reception of the gospel differed such as (soil number 2) what can I get out of it; (soil number 3) how can I fit this in with my other priorities, and (soil number 4) how can I serve Christ alone in a manner worthy of Christ.

As to the will, the first soil had willfully hardened his heart, but did not understand the gospel so there was no willful rejection. The second soil willed to be saved but salvation does not depend on the man who wills (Romans 9:6) and the third soil not only willed to be saved, he ran some by way of commitment, but his commitment was not whole hearted, he still treasured some things of this world. And the forth soil not only willed and ran, but with his whole heart and this is the faith of the few who are chosen, for God credited his faith as righteousness.

 

[Van]

But also look at the tense: "God has chosen the foolish things... has chosen the weak things..."

Yes, the tense puts God's choice in the past, but how far in the past, i.e during the lifetime of the chosen or before creation, is left open by the grammar. But the context, chosen as weak or foolish according to a human perspective requires that the election be during the lifetime of the one chosen. I believe the reason for the lack of a specific time is that they were not all chosen at the same time, for they are thinking about the group and when various members of the group were individually chosen.

As for the underlying Greek, my interlinear says the verb is in the aortist tense which indicates something is a done deal in the past, i.e. God has chosen the weak to shame the strong.

 

[Van]

"In Ephesians 1:3-4, we see that God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we would be holy and blameless before Him. The idea is that we have been the beneficiary of God’s blessings from before the foundation of the world, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, and as a consequence we were chosen conceptually as the target group of believers who would be redeemed, then during our lifetime when we were placed in Christ we are covered with the grace granted those in Christ from all eternity, and so, at judgment we will be holy and blameless before Him because we are in Christ."

So on the surface it would seem this passage is detracting from your point very markedly (so you are to be commended for your honesty in posting it), but you give your own spin on it - you say we were only chosen "conceptually". Its interesting you would identify abstract conception here, and not in I Cor 1:26-28 above, where as noted it repeatedly talks about conecptual "things" instead of people. Its just weird you would not notice it there, and in the very next passage you discuss (Ephesians 1:3-4) you invoke "conceptual" there when I don't believe its in evidence, especially in light of the very next verse (which somehow you apparently didn't read):


(Eph 1:5 NASB) He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

So, does this strike you as "conceptual" only?

First, I edited my post to change "conceptually" to "corporately". You are correct, in that my view of Ephesians 1:4 refers to God electing us corporately, i.e as a target group, rather than as foreseen individuals. We will sidestep the issue of whether foreseen individuals are concepts.

No, I have carefully studied every passage that addresses election so that includes Ephesians 1:5. When God established His redemption plan, before the foundation of the world, it included the idea that those chosen would then be predestined to be adopted physically as children of God. Adoption is the term Paul uses to refer to our ultimate sanctification when we are raised in glorified bodies, rather than referring to our being born anew. So, in my view, everyone who is born anew is sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge to our predestined adoption, see Romans 8:23

 

[Amy.G]

I do not recall a rebuttal to this point, people are called before they are chosen individually. And those called but not chosen lacked something the King was looking for. Hence, this parable teaches an individual conditional election during our lifetime after we are called by the gospel.

This parable of the wedding banquet (IMO) is teaching both corporate election and individual election. Jesus is speaking to Jews and the invitation to the wedding was sent to the Jews first. But since they rejected (Matt 22:5), the invitation was sent to the Gentiles (vs. 8).
Many responded to the invitation and came to the banquet, but one in particular did not have the proper wedding garment (the Holy Spirit who comes by the new birth).

This parable does not show election occurs in our lifetime, but only the calling occurs in our lifetime.

 

[jbh28]

This parable of the wedding banquet (IMO) is teaching both corporate election and individual election. Jesus is speaking to Jews and the invitation to the wedding was sent to the Jews first. But since they rejected (Matt 22:5), the invitation was sent to the Gentiles (vs. 8).
Many responded to the invitation and came to the banquet, but one in particular did not have the proper wedding garment (the Holy Spirit who comes by the new birth).

This parable does not show election occurs in our lifetime, but only the calling occurs in our lifetime.

Exactly. And when does election happen? It happens before the foundation of the world as Paul clearly stated in Ephesians. Regardless of the method of election(conditional or unconditional) election happened before the foundation of the world. It happened before I was alive.

 

[Van]

Reply to Amy,

This parable of the wedding banquet (IMO) is teaching both corporate election and individual election. Jesus is speaking to Jews and the invitation to the wedding was sent to the Jews first. But since they rejected (Matt 22:5), the invitation was sent to the Gentiles (vs. 8).
Many responded to the invitation and came to the banquet, but one in particular did not have the proper wedding garment (the Holy Spirit who comes by the new birth).

This parable does not show election occurs in our lifetime, but only the calling occurs in our lifetime.

The close of the parable says many are called but few are chosen. Therefore the rejection indicates not being chosen for cause. So logically with the calling occurring during our lifetime, then the choosing does too because it comes after the calling according to this parable.

 

[Amy.G]

The close of the parable says many are called but few are chosen. Therefore the rejection indicates not being chosen for cause. So logically with the calling occurring during our lifetime, then the choosing does too because it comes after the calling according to this parable.

So when did God elect Christ as redeemer? At His birth? In His "lifetime"?
NO! He was elect before the foundation of the earth.

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

What you are saying is that God makes His plans and decisions as time goes along.
He is not stuck in this box we call time. He is outside of time and all of His elections were done before He ever created a thing.