Is the Gospel given for our ETERNAL salvation?

[12strings]

FOREST: There is a salvation in coming unto a knowledge of the truth but it is not eternal salvation. It is a salvation (deliverance) that we receive here in this world as soon as we understand. Most of the salvation scriptures are deliverances we receive here in this world. The only time that it is talking about eternal salvation is when we are delivered from this present evil world.

I thought we might dedicate a thread for Forest (& Kyredneck, if he so desires) to give a BIBLICAL argument to support the above statement, since they must know that the vast majority of Christians (even calvinists) would disagree with this idea.

(To explain further for those not understanding the debate, Forest says that the gospel is not for eternal salvation, but only the salvation from false belief here in this world...Eternal salvation is purely an act of grace by which God saves someone who he has unconditionally chosen regardless of whether they have heard and believed the gospel).

So, where in scriptures could we find the teaching that Faith in the Gospel is NOT for eternal salvation?

 

[kyredneck]

....So, where in scriptures could we find the teaching that Faith in the Gospel is NOT for eternal salvation?

So, where in scriptures could we find the teaching that Faith in the Gospel IS for eternal salvation?

You go first.

 

[convicted1]

Release the hounds........

Of course, my hounds won't go very far....LOL

 

[12strings]

Here's a start...got to run.

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
(Philippians 3:8; Philippians 3:9-11)

-Paul seems to think his faith in Christ's righteousness has something to do with attaining the resurrection from the dead.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16 )

Believing is related to having eternal life.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded [B]through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time[/B]. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
(1 Peter 1:3-4; 1 Peter 1:5-9 )

Faith is the means by which God keeps his children until the final (eternal) salvation.

 

[Amy.G]

So, where in scriptures could we find the teaching that Faith in the Gospel IS for eternal salvation?

You go first.

12 Strings asked a sincere question and you answer with a question.

But here you go.


Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 15:1-22

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

 

[preacher4truth]

This says enough:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24

 

[convicted1]

This says enough:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[kyredneck]

Here's a start...got to run.

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
(Philippians 3:8; Philippians 3:9-11)

-Paul seems to think his faith in Christ's righteousness has something to do with attaining the resurrection from the dead.

First off, we're all going to attain unto the resurrection of the just and the unjust, we're all going to stand before the tribunal of Christ irregardless of faith or lack of it. Paul's 'attaining' here is living up to practically what he was positionally, solely due to the work of Christ. You know, 'If by the Spirit we live [eternal salvation], let us by the Spirit also walk [timely salvation]'. This is the resurrection, in which we were all totally passive, that Paul is referring to:

4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;
11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus. Ro 6

1 If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth. Col 3

Secondly, I don't like the rendering of the translation you're using, namely that it reads 'faith IN Christ' when it should read literally 'faith OF Christ', inferring Christ as the author and finisher of our faith.:

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil 3 KJV (YLT also)

Thirdly, don't you see that this passage is referring to a process, as in a life long endeavor, and not to a 'one time event'?

Fourthly, what did Paul's faith/obedience to the gospel have to do with his being struck down helpless on the road to Damascus?

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16 )

Believing is related to having eternal life.

Yea, as in belief on Christ is the biggest indicator one can have that one has been born of God:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

Jn 3:16 is a statement of fact, not an invitation. Those that believe on Him have already been born from above. Period. Are you not able to ascertain from the prior verses that before one can enter into or even see the kingdom of God they must first be born from above? Do you not see in verse 21 that God has already wrought within those that come to Christ?

Jn 3:16 is incomplete without these 'lead in' verses:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;
15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.

Now, follow the 'pointer' of v 14:

And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21:8

The brazen serpent was lifted up for those that were bitten:

.........They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Mk 2:17

It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for Christ.

Blessed are those that have been made to hunger and thirst after righteousness. Fortunate are those who are sensible of the serpent's awful sting.

Also, there is no 'whosoever' in the Greek. This has been pointed out many times on the BB:

for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. Jn 3:16 YLT

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
(1 Peter 1:3-4; 1 Peter 1:5-9 )

Faith is the means by which God keeps his children until the final (eternal) salvation.

Egad. I suppose you actually mean that YOUR faith is the means that God remains faithful to His promise. This is no more true than saying that the faith of the firstborn in Egypt was the means that the blood of the passover lamb accomplished what God had promised it would do.

I defer to Gill here:

“....not that faith is the cause of salvation, or meritorious of it; for that itself is the gift of God, and is rather a part of salvation, and, at most, but the means of perceiving an interest in it, and of enjoying the comfort of it; and is what will issue in it, and in the full enjoyment of it; when faith will both have its end and scope, and be at an end, being exchanged for fruition;....”

Again, I don't like the rendering of the translation you're using.

9 receiving the end of your faith -- salvation of souls; YLT

At long last our hope, our anticipations, will have come to pass.

 

[12strings]

I'll hopefully come back to this later, but one quick question for tonight: Haven't you said before in our discussion about those who have never heard, that they don't even have to believe or have faith? My understanding was that you believe a person who never heard the gospel, and thereby never believed, might possibly be one of the elect and so be saved in the end. If so, that seems to be different than what you are saying here. I'm just trying to clear up what you believe.

 

[kyredneck]

I'll hopefully come back to this later, but one quick question for tonight: Haven't you said before in our discussion about those who have never heard, that they don't even have to believe or have faith? My understanding was that you believe a person who never heard the gospel, and thereby never believed, might possibly be one of the elect and so be saved in the end. If so, that seems to be different than what you are saying here. I'm just trying to clear up what you believe.

It seems that on a thread concerning Hardline Restrictivism, which you agreed with, we may have discussed this topic. Concerning those who have never heard, the scriptures say:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

 

[kyredneck]

12 Strings asked a sincere question and you answer with a question.

So? He didn't seem to have a problem with it.

Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 15:1-22

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

And these prove gospel means regeneration how?

 

[Amy.G]

So? He didn't seem to have a problem with it.

Maybe he's just nicer than I am? :love2:

And these prove gospel means regeneration how?

Because they all refer to eternal life and immortality.


What is temporal salvation? I cannot grasp that term.

 

[Forest]

I thought we might dedicate a thread for Forest (& Kyredneck, if he so desires) to give a BIBLICAL argument to support the above statement, since they must know that the vast majority of Christians (even calvinists) would disagree with this idea.

(To explain further for those not understanding the debate, Forest says that the gospel is not for eternal salvation, but only the salvation from false belief here in this world...Eternal salvation is purely an act of grace by which God saves someone who he has unconditionally chosen regardless of whether they have heard and believed the gospel).

So, where in scriptures could we find the teaching that Faith in the Gospel is NOT for eternal salvation?

Thanks for singeling kyredneck and I out for being in the minority in our belief, wasen't that the case with the doctrine that Jesus taught in his day, and by the way, Christ's doctrine is still in the minority, which encourages me in understanding that I may have the same doctrine that Christ had. Christ's church that he set up was always few in number and still is, designated by , the few, the remnant, the little flock, the kingdom of God, the bride, etc. So, where in the gospel does it tell us that our faith is the cause of our eternal salvation.

 

[annsni]

Thanks for singeling kyredneck and I out for being in the minority in our belief, wasen't that the case with the doctrine that Jesus taught in his day, and by the way, Christ's doctrine is still in the minority, which encourages me in understanding that I may have the same doctrine that Christ had. Christ's church that he set up was always few in number and still is, designated by , the few, the remnant, the little flock, the kingdom of God, the bride, etc. So, where in the gospel does it tell us that our faith is the cause of our eternal salvation.

Or maybe when you are standing alone - even away from the Scriptures, you could be wrong???????

 

[Forest]

Here's a start...got to run.



-Paul seems to think his faith in Christ's righteousness has something to do with attaining the resurrection from the dead.



Believing is related to having eternal life.



Faith is the means by which God keeps his children until the final (eternal) salvation.

I don't know what version of the bible you are using, but my King James version in Phil 3:9, says not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the "FAITH OF CHRIST", not through the faith "IN" Christ. That would make it Christ's faith and not Pauls. Some versions are turning many away from the truth to believing a false doctrine. Our faith is not the cause of our eternal salvation.

 

[Forest]

Here's a start...got to run.



-Paul seems to think his faith in Christ's righteousness has something to do with attaining the resurrection from the dead.



Believing is related to having eternal life.



Faith is the means by which God keeps his children until the final (eternal) salvation.

John 3:16, in the King James says "believeth" present tense, not "believes" future tense. The word "world" according to Thayer's Greed translation means "used of believers only", also in John 1:29, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19.

 

[Forest]

Here's a start...got to run.



-Paul seems to think his faith in Christ's righteousness has something to do with attaining the resurrection from the dead.



Believing is related to having eternal life.



Faith is the means by which God keeps his children until the final (eternal) salvation.

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. Those who do not have the indwelling of the Spirit do not have access to faith. We are already born of God before we receive faith.

 

[12strings]

Thanks for singeling kyredneck and I out for being in the minority in our belief, wasen't that the case with the doctrine that Jesus taught in his day, and by the way, Christ's doctrine is still in the minority, which encourages me in understanding that I may have the same doctrine that Christ had. Christ's church that he set up was always few in number and still is, designated by , the few, the remnant, the little flock, the kingdom of God, the bride, etc. So, where in the gospel does it tell us that our faith is the cause of our eternal salvation.

I still do not have time to reply to Kyredneck's long post; though I think Many here (myself included) a biblical case laid out as to why Primitive Baptist belief that the Faith in the Gospel is unrelated to eternal salvation. Several have laid out a few verses that answer your last question. So could you answer my original question plainly?

John 3:16, in the King James says "believeth" present tense, not "believes" future tense. The word "world" according to Thayer's Greed translation means "used of believers only", also in John 1:29, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19.

I fail to see how this answers the one who says that it is those who believe that have eternal life. The "world" issue is unrelated to my original question.

 

[12strings]

First off, we're all going to attain unto the resurrection of the just and the unjust, we're all going to stand before the tribunal of Christ irregardless of faith or lack of it. Paul's 'attaining' here is living up to practically what he was positionally, solely due to the work of Christ. You know, 'If by the Spirit we live [eternal salvation], let us by the Spirit also walk [timely salvation]'. This is the resurrection, in which we were all totally passive, that Paul is referring to:

If Paul is refering to a resurection in which we are totally passive, why does he say he needs to "attain" it?

Secondly, I don't like the rendering of the translation you're using, namely that it reads 'faith IN Christ' when it should read literally 'faith OF Christ', inferring Christ as the author and finisher of our faith.:

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil 3 KJV (YLT also)

You are probably right about this passage. And I don't have a problem with that. However, Paul speaks extensively in Romans 3 about the righteousness of God that appeared in Jesus Christ for our justification..."to be received by faith." Would you say the "righteousness" in Phil. 3 is related to eternal salvation and the "righteousness" and "Justification" in Rom. 3 is related only to temporal salvation?

Yea, as in belief on Christ is the biggest indicator one can have that one has been born of God:
Jn 3:16 is a statement of fact, not an invitation. Those that believe on Him have already been born from above. Period. Are you not able to ascertain from the prior verses that before one can enter into or even see the kingdom of God they must first be born from above? Do you not see in verse 21 that God has already wrought within those that come to Christ?
It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for Christ.

There is nothing you have said above that I disagree with. However, it seems that the faith that God gives from above is what is exercised to receive Christ (see John 1:12-13)

Also, there is no 'whosoever' in the Greek. This has been pointed out many times on the BB:for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. Jn 3:16 YLT

I don't see how that matters to this discussion. Everyone who is believing has eternal life. Belief in Christ is linked with eternal life. Again, it seem that the free gift of justification, or receiving the righteousness of Christ is "received by faith (Rom. 3:25).

Egad. I suppose you actually mean that YOUR faith is the means that God remains faithful to His promise. This is no more true than saying that the faith of the firstborn in Egypt was the means that the blood of the passover lamb accomplished what God had promised it would do.

I defer to Gill here:

“....not that faith is the cause of salvation, or meritorious of it; for that itself is the gift of God, and is rather a part of salvation, and, at most, but the means of perceiving an interest in it, and of enjoying the comfort of it; and is what will issue in it, and in the full enjoyment of it; when faith will both have its end and scope, and be at an end, being exchanged for fruition;....”

I would not say faith is the CAUSE of salvation, but that we are saved "BY grace, THROUGH faith." I would say it this way: My faith, that God has given me, and that he sustains in me, is the means by which God guards me for a salvation to be revealed at the last time. I would refer to Eph. 2:8-9 & also to Col 1, that if I continue in the faith, I have been reconciled to God. And that I have confidence of continuing in the faith due to God's promise in Phil 1;6 (and others) to complete the work he started in me.

Again, I don't like the rendering of the translation you're using.
9 receiving the end of your faith -- salvation of souls; YLT

Here I would say this variation of translation could still mean what I am saying... or it could mean what you are saying. We will have to look elsewhere for the answer.

 

[DaChaser1]

This says enough:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24

SAME person also said that "he who has ears" will hear his message and respond by/in faith, while the rest will"hear and yet not hear!"