Is the Gospel given for our ETERNAL salvation?

[preacher4truth]

Thanks for singeling kyredneck and I out for being in the minority in our belief, wasen't that the case with the doctrine that Jesus taught in his day, and by the way, Christ's doctrine is still in the minority, which encourages me in understanding that I may have the same doctrine that Christ had. Christ's church that he set up was always few in number and still is, designated by , the few, the remnant, the little flock, the kingdom of God, the bride, etc. So, where in the gospel does it tell us that our faith is the cause of our eternal salvation.

No one in any fashion is going against you for your teachings as in the same way against Christs teachings, which really means you're attempting to say we are against the teachings of Christ. Nice try, but you're wrong.

The thing is, we don't happen to see Christ teaching what your interpretations of His teachings are, but quite the contrary, so there is no basis for you to be encouraged that your teachings here are the same as His, and that you're being persecuted in the same manner, which is your implication. You're granting to yourself a pseudo persecution and its baseless.

We know, we know, some take great comfort in their 'smallness' or 'small group', that they are 'the few', their churches not so big, their sect not vast, so they must be 'the right ones', and their teachings aren't accepted (rightly so in this case) so on and so forth...things along that line, as if this proves them to be truth and others in error.

One thing for sure, many cults share the same sentiments about their smallness. I'm not saying you're cultic, I am saying they share the same sentiments, and this is glorying in man, not in Christ.

Who is teaching faith is the cause? You're miscontruing things to arrive at your spurious conclusions.

 

[Forest]

12 Strings asked a sincere question and you answer with a question.

But here you go.


Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 15:1-22

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Mark 8:35, There is an abundant life we can have here in this world if we follow the commandmants of God. We cannot save ourselves eternally, that would be salvation by works. Rom 1:16, There is a salvation in coming unto a knowledge of the truth, but is is not eternal salvation, but a deliverance we receive as soon as we understand and believe the truth about our eternal salvation. Eph 1:13, The gospel tells us how we were saved eternally by Christ on the cross, it does not tell us how to be saved eternally. 2 Thes 1:8-9, Those that obey the gospel are those that are already eternally saved by Jesus on the cross. Eternal salvation was accomplished for all of those that god gave to his Son John 6:37-41. 2 Tim 1:10, The gospel brings to light what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross. Eph 2:8, The faith in this verse is not our faith but is the faith of Christ, Gal 2:16.

 

[DaChaser1]

Or maybe when you are standing alone - even away from the Scriptures, you could be wrong???????

Will the true Church of Christ really be that small?

My Bible states that a number beyond numbering, from every kindred/tribes/ and peoples will be assembled in heavens !

 

[Forest]

If Paul is refering to a resurection in which we are totally passive, why does he say he needs to "attain" it?



You are probably right about this passage. And I don't have a problem with that. However, Paul speaks extensively in Romans 3 about the righteousness of God that appeared in Jesus Christ for our justification..."to be received by faith." Would you say the "righteousness" in Phil. 3 is related to eternal salvation and the "righteousness" and "Justification" in Rom. 3 is related only to temporal salvation?



There is nothing you have said above that I disagree with. However, it seems that the faith that God gives from above is what is exercised to receive Christ (see John 1:12-13)



I don't see how that matters to this discussion. Everyone who is believing has eternal life. Belief in Christ is linked with eternal life. Again, it seem that the free gift of justification, or receiving the righteousness of Christ is "received by faith (Rom. 3:25).





I would not say faith is the CAUSE of salvation, but that we are saved "BY grace, THROUGH faith." I would say it this way: My faith, that God has given me, and that he sustains in me, is the means by which God guards me for a salvation to be revealed at the last time. I would refer to Eph. 2:8-9 & also to Col 1, that if I continue in the faith, I have been reconciled to God. And that I have confidence of continuing in the faith due to God's promise in Phil 1;6 (and others) to complete the work he started in me.



Here I would say this variation of translation could still mean what I am saying... or it could mean what you are saying. We will have to look elsewhere for the answer.

In Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith. The faith that we are saved through is not our faith, but Christ's faith, Gal 2:16.

 

[Forest]

No one in any fashion is going against you for your teachings as in the same way against Christs teachings, which really means you're attempting to say we are against the teachings of Christ. Nice try, but you're wrong.

The thing is, we don't happen to see Christ teaching what your interpretations of His teachings are, but quite the contrary, so there is no basis for you to be encouraged that your teachings here are the same as His, and that you're being persecuted in the same manner, which is your implication. You're granting to yourself a pseudo persecution and its baseless.

We know, we know, some take great comfort in their 'smallness' or 'small group', that they are 'the few', their churches not so big, their sect not vast, so they must be 'the right ones', and their teachings aren't accepted (rightly so in this case) so on and so forth...things along that line, as if this proves them to be truth and others in error.

One thing for sure, many cults share the same sentiments about their smallness. I'm not saying you're cultic, I am saying they share the same sentiments, and this is glorying in man, not in Christ.

Who is teaching faith is the cause? You're miscontruing things to arrive at your spurious conclusions.

My response to 12strings concerning faith is in reference to his statement, "So, where in the scriptures could we find the teaching that faith in the gospel is NOT for eternal salvation". You might do well to go back and read his first thread before repremanding my wording in response to his thread.

 

[Forest]

Will the true Church of Christ really be that small?

My Bible states that a number beyond numbering, from every kindred/tribes/ and peoples will be assembled in heavens !

Christ's visiable church and the elect that will be in heaven are two different groups.

 

[12strings]

In Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith. The faith that we are saved through is not our faith, but Christ's faith, Gal 2:16.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Even given the fact that this is likely the closest translation of the phrase, Paul follows it directly with "we have believed in Jesus," THAT we might be justified." There is clearly a personal belief (faith) going on here related to justification, as their is in Romans 3 (Righteousness of God "to be received by faith.")

The OP posed a simple question: What is the scriptural basis for determining that there are 2 salvations, and that faith in the gospel has only to do with temporal salvation? We have not yet recieved an answer.

 

[convicted1]

Christ's visiable church and the elect that will be in heaven are two different groups.

 

[kyredneck]

Galatians 2:16 (KJV) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

But Paul also said:
....the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:13

But then he says:
...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3:20

But then James says:
...by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2:24

But Paul also says:
....It is God that justifieth; Ro 8:33
.... being justified by his grace....Titus 3:7
....being now justified by his blood...Ro 5:9

Rightly divide these and you'll have a basic understanding of Primitive Baptist soteriology.

Even given the fact that this is likely the closest translation of the phrase, Paul follows it directly with "we have believed in Jesus," THAT we might be justified." There is clearly a personal belief (faith) going on here related to justification, as their is in Romans 3 (Righteousness of God "to be received by faith.")

'Personal' faith? What become of faith OF Christ? And, 'that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God'?

The OP posed a simple question: What is the scriptural basis for determining that there are 2 salvations, and that faith in the gospel has only to do with temporal salvation? We have not yet recieved an answer.

Well, this simply isn't true, you're changing midstream, the OP question was, “where in scriptures could we find the teaching that Faith in the Gospel is NOT for eternal salvation?”

Are you now attempting to smear/slander the PBs with a '2 salvations' accusation? To make them appear as a cult? There's already a couple that do this, perhaps you'll join right in with them.

Of the estimated [up to] 2.5 million Hebrew that were redeemed out of the house of bondage, only 2, Joshua and Caleb, made it into the land of milk and honey. With the many God was not well pleased, and they (>20 yrs of age) were refused entrance into His rest, and were strewn in the wilderness because of their disobedience and unbelief. 'These things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition', and the type that lies within the story of the Exodus generation is drawn upon in several places in the scriptures, especially in the NT.

The Hebrews represent all of God's redeemed, born from above children. Their faith had nothing to do with being brought out from the house of bondage, God accomplished that alone with a strong hand. Their obedience and faith had everything to do with entering into God's rest though. Some erroneously construe crossing the river Jordan to represent death, and the promised land to represent heaven. This doesn't harmonize with Heb 4 and would imply Moses and Aaron perished eternally because even those two entered not in because of their unbelief. The land of milk and honey represents all the sweet benefits that come from a relationship with Christ and of the kingdom of God here on earth in this temporal time realm:

for the kingdom of God is.....righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14:17

But:

3 Jesus replied to him, "Truly, I tell you with certainty, unless a person is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
7 Don't be astonished that I said to you, 'All of you must be born from above.
8 The wind blows where it wants to. You hear its sound, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going. That's the way it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. Jn 3 ISV

Man is totally passive in the eternal aspects of his salvation, but has to take an active role in his salvation here on earth.

 

[12strings]

Rightly divide these and you'll have a basic understanding of Primitive Baptist soteriology.

-Does this mean you are not going to assist us in rightly dividing these verses? This is what my OP is asking for...a POSITIVE case made for the belief that belief in the Gospel is not related to eternal salvation. We know that most of the verses we have given you, you say that they are just referring to the temporal aspects of salvation... We want to know WHY you belief that?

'Personal' faith? What become of faith OF Christ? And, 'that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God'?

-I'm simply saying that if paul says, ""we have believed in Jesus," THAT we might be justified." ...There is active pesonal belief in Jesus going on that he is relating to being justified. The Faith of Christ is there, but the belief of the people "we" seems to be involved as well.

Well, this simply isn't true, you're changing midstream, the OP question was, “where in scriptures could we find the teaching that Faith in the Gospel is NOT for eternal salvation?”

Here is the Beginning of the OP:

FOREST: There is a salvation in coming unto a knowledge of the truth but it is not eternal salvation. It is a salvation (deliverance) that we receive here in this world as soon as we understand. Most of the salvation scriptures are deliverances we receive here in this world. The only time that it is talking about eternal salvation is when we are delivered from this present evil world.

12STRINGS: I thought we might dedicate a thread for Forest (& Kyredneck, if he so desires) to give a BIBLICAL argument to support the above statement, since they must know that the vast majority of Christians (even calvinists) would disagree with this idea.

So I guess I was asking both, Where is there a distinction between temporal salvation and eternal salvation that shows that the gospel and belief in it is only related to the temporal?

Are you now attempting to smear/slander the PBs with a '2 salvations' accusation? To make them appear as a cult? There's already a couple that do this, perhaps you'll join right in with them.

[/QUOTE]

I'm not trying to smear anyone...Merely to understand statements like:

FOREST: There is a salvation in coming unto a knowledge of the truth but it is not eternal salvation. It is a salvation (deliverance) that we receive here in this world as soon as we understand. Most of the salvation scriptures are deliverances we receive here in this world. The only time that it is talking about eternal salvation is when we are delivered from this present evil world.

and...

FOREST: Christ's visiable church and the elect that will be in heaven are two different groups.

and your own...

KYREDNECK: Man is totally passive in the eternal aspects of his salvation, but has to take an active role in his salvation here on earth.

If this is not speaking of two different salvations, then How should I interprete these statements? What we are asking for here is simply for you to explain further what you believe and why...because it is extremely new to most of us on this board, and new perspectives usually take more explanation to convey clearly than ideas that are well-known.

 

[kyredneck]

-Does this mean you are not going to assist us in rightly dividing these verses?

Give it a shot yourself. You confidently affirm sola fide, show me how you harmonize your 'faith alone' justification with the passages I referenced. Or, maybe you've never really meditated that deeply into the matter.

This is what my OP is asking for...a POSITIVE case made for the belief that belief in the Gospel is not related to eternal salvation. We know that most of the verses we have given you, you say that they are just referring to the temporal aspects of salvation. We want to know WHY you belief that?......

I have made several positive points, but you don't even recognize or comment on them, you just move on with pressing with this why, why?

Stop throwing up this one way smokescreen and provide some comment of your own on what I've given you already.

 

[12strings]

Give it a shot yourself. You confidently affirm sola fide, show me how you harmonize your 'faith alone' justification with the passages I referenced. Or, maybe you've never really meditated that deeply into the matter.

I have made several positive points, but you don't even recognize or comment on them, you just move on with pressing with this why, why?

Stop throwing up this one way smokescreen and provide some comment of your own on what I've given you already.

I am not intentionally throwing up any smokescreen. I have tried to respond to your arguments, and from my point of view it seems that you are not responding to my arguments either... Perhaps neither of us is able to respond to the others points in a way that satisfies the other, so I suppose we are done for now. I am not trying to misrepresent your beliefs in any way, simply to understand them. Perhaps later I will go back through this thread and try to respond better.

 

[kyredneck]

I am not intentionally throwing up any smokescreen. I have tried to respond to your arguments, and from my point of view it seems that you are not responding to my arguments either... Perhaps neither of us is able to respond to the others points in a way that satisfies the other, so I suppose we are done for now. I am not trying to misrepresent your beliefs in any way, simply to understand them. Perhaps later I will go back through this thread and try to respond better.

If you're genuinely interested in knowing 'why' the Old Baptists make a distinction between eternal salvation and gospel salvation I would refer you to this short essay by Elder Michael Gowens, pastor of the Lexington Church:

Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling
http://www.sovgrace.net/theological...-born-again-the-doctrine-of-effectual-calling


Here's what the Reformed Baptists at Ligonier (R.C. Sproul) have to say about it:

Regeneration Is Immediate
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/regeneration-immediate/

Excerpts:

"..... we mean that the new birth is something that happens without means. God the Holy Spirit alone works upon the soul, He does not use any other agent to change the heart."

"Though God does not make use of any means besides Himself to bring about regeneration, He does work through means in our sanctification, the process of growing in personal holiness. Scripture read and preached, the sacraments, prayer, and so on are all means that the Lord uses to mature us in Christ."


Here's what some of the 'Old School' Southern Baptists had to say about it:

Historic Baptists and Regeneration
http://www.founders.org/journal/fj02/article2.html

Excerpts:

"In many Christian circles today experiencing "regeneration" (or "being born again") is simply something that happens when a person "makes a decision to accept Jesus Christ into his heart as personal Savior." Now it is certainly true that Jesus is the Savior, and that he saves sinners on a personal level. However, the idea that the experience of regeneration is a decision which every sinner ought to make and indeed every sinner can make is an idea which is seriously defective."

"James P. Boyce (first president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Louisville, Kentucky): "It is not strange, therefore, that they [i.e. regeneration and conversion] are often confounded. Yet, after all, the Scriptures also teach that regeneration is the work of God, changing the heart of man by his sovereign will, while conversion is that act of man turning towards God with the new inclination thus given to his heart" (Abstract of Systematic Theology, p. 374)."

"John A. Broadus (distinguished professor of New Testament and successor to Boyce at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary): "1. Q. What is meant by the word regeneration? A. Regeneration is God's causing a person to be born again. 9. Q. Does faith come before the new birth? A. No, it is the new heart that truly repents and believes" (taken from Broadus' A Catechism of Bible Teaching, reprinted in A Baptist Treasury, pp. 67-68)."

"John L. Dagg (first writing Southern Baptist theologian; president of Mercer University in Georgia): "In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect. . . . But, in his own time and manner, God, the Holy Spirit, makes the word effectual in producing a new affection in the soul: and, when the first movement of love to God exists, the first throb of spiritual life commences" (A Manual of Theology, pp. 277, 279)."

"B. H. Carroll (founder and first president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas): "The true scriptural position [concerning regeneration] is this: There is, first of all, a direct influence of the Holy Spirit on the passive spirit of the sinner, quickening him or making him sensitive to the preaching of the Word. In this the sinner is passive. But he is not a subject of the new birth without contrition, repentance and faith. In exercising these he is active. Yet even his contrition is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance and faith are but responses to the antecedent spiritual graces of repentance and faith." Carroll goes on to state that "repentance and faith are fruits of regeneration" (An Interpretation of the English Bible, Volume 4, p. 287)."

 

[annsni]

If you're genuinely interested in knowing 'why' the Old Baptists make a distinction between eternal salvation and gospel salvation

Here's what the Reformed Baptists at Ligonier (R.C. Sproul) have to say about it:

Regeneration Is Immediate
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/regeneration-immediate/

I can guarantee you that R.C. Sproul would disagree with you that there is a difference between eternal salvation and gospel salvation. Why you chose to use this devotional as a "support" of your argument, I have no idea.

 

[kyredneck]

I can guarantee you that R.C. Sproul would disagree with you that there is a difference between eternal salvation and gospel salvation. Why you chose to use this devotional as a "support" of your argument, I have no idea.

From the article I referenced:

"Though God does not make use of any means besides Himself to bring about regeneration, He does work through means in our sanctification, the process of growing in personal holiness. Scripture read and preached, the sacraments, prayer, and so on are all means that the Lord uses to mature us in Christ."

This is exactly how a PB would view the two. Different terms, same idea.

 

[unprofitable]

Don't mean to go off track, but I thought Sproul was a presbyterian.

If you're genuinely interested in knowing 'why' the Old Baptists make a distinction between eternal salvation and gospel salvation I would refer you to this short essay by Elder Michael Gowens, pastor of the Lexington Church:

Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling
http://www.sovgrace.net/theological...-born-again-the-doctrine-of-effectual-calling


Here's what the Reformed Baptists at Ligonier (R.C. Sproul) have to say about it:

Regeneration Is Immediate
Regeneration Is Immediate | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

Excerpts:

"..... we mean that the new birth is something that happens without means. God the Holy Spirit alone works upon the soul, He does not use any other agent to change the heart."

"Though God does not make use of any means besides Himself to bring about regeneration, He does work through means in our sanctification, the process of growing in personal holiness. Scripture read and preached, the sacraments, prayer, and so on are all means that the Lord uses to mature us in Christ."


Here's what some of the 'Old School' Southern Baptists had to say about it:

Historic Baptists and Regeneration
Founders Ministries

Excerpts:

"In many Christian circles today experiencing "regeneration" (or "being born again") is simply something that happens when a person "makes a decision to accept Jesus Christ into his heart as personal Savior." Now it is certainly true that Jesus is the Savior, and that he saves sinners on a personal level. However, the idea that the experience of regeneration is a decision which every sinner ought to make and indeed every sinner can make is an idea which is seriously defective."

"James P. Boyce (first president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Louisville, Kentucky): "It is not strange, therefore, that they [i.e. regeneration and conversion] are often confounded. Yet, after all, the Scriptures also teach that regeneration is the work of God, changing the heart of man by his sovereign will, while conversion is that act of man turning towards God with the new inclination thus given to his heart" (Abstract of Systematic Theology, p. 374)."

"John A. Broadus (distinguished professor of New Testament and successor to Boyce at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary): "1. Q. What is meant by the word regeneration? A. Regeneration is God's causing a person to be born again. 9. Q. Does faith come before the new birth? A. No, it is the new heart that truly repents and believes" (taken from Broadus' A Catechism of Bible Teaching, reprinted in A Baptist Treasury, pp. 67-68)."

"John L. Dagg (first writing Southern Baptist theologian; president of Mercer University in Georgia): "In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect. . . . But, in his own time and manner, God, the Holy Spirit, makes the word effectual in producing a new affection in the soul: and, when the first movement of love to God exists, the first throb of spiritual life commences" (A Manual of Theology, pp. 277, 279)."

"B. H. Carroll (founder and first president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas): "The true scriptural position [concerning regeneration] is this: There is, first of all, a direct influence of the Holy Spirit on the passive spirit of the sinner, quickening him or making him sensitive to the preaching of the Word. In this the sinner is passive. But he is not a subject of the new birth without contrition, repentance and faith. In exercising these he is active. Yet even his contrition is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance and faith are but responses to the antecedent spiritual graces of repentance and faith." Carroll goes on to state that "repentance and faith are fruits of regeneration" (An Interpretation of the English Bible, Volume 4, p. 287)."

 

[kyredneck]

Don't mean to go off track, but I thought Sproul was a presbyterian.

He was a Monergist, just as the Old Baptists.

[and]

...waiting for this thread to be now closed.

 

[AustinC]

Don't mean to go off track, but I thought Sproul was a presbyterian.

Yes, Sproul was a PCA Presbyterian.
Yes, he was a monergist.
Yes, he believed in covenantal infant baptism, but not baptismal regeneration.
Yes, he held to the 5 solas.
Yes, he held to the 5 points of Calvinism.
Yes, he was an old earth proponent.
Yes, he grew up in Pittsburgh.

 

[unprofitable]

Thanks for the first answer

 

[Alan Gross]

So? He didn't seem to have a problem with it.



And these prove gospel means regeneration how?

"the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation"