Osas?

[DHK]

DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED CONFESSION TO THE CROSS? DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED FORGIVING YOUR BROTHER TO THE CROSS? DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED STOP LUSTING WITH YOUR EYES TO THE CROSS!

Is it therefore necessary to keep these commands in order to be saved, and then, secondly, in order to keep on being in a state of saving grace?

 

[The Biblicist]

I will tell you the same thing I told Amy!

I can hardly believe that you think to forgive your brother is a work! Does forgiving your brother make you weary?! I can hardly believe that you call stop cheating on your wife a work. When a person stop committing adultery, does that cause them to be weary?! I can hardly believe that you call offering your brother food when he is hungry a work. I can hardly believe that you call confessing and repenting sins a work!

Do you know what the work the Jews had to do? Do you really think you have ever experienced that kind of work for salvation? The WORKS of the law were circumcision. The works of the law is a written code with regulations, for worship, and an earthly sanctuary. Gifts and sacrifices were required for worship and the earthly sanctuary. They a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washing---external regulations. Those are the works of the law.

Yes, they are all works because they are all things YOU DO. Nobody else does them for you - YOU DO THEM. They are what Paul says are "good works" (Eph. 2:10).

The greek germ "ergos" is the root word from which we get our word "energy" and those are things that you expend your own energy doing.

 

[The Biblicist]

The WORKS of the law were circumcision. The works of the law is a written code with regulations, for worship, and an earthly sanctuary. Gifts and sacrifices were required for worship and the earthly sanctuary. They a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washing---external regulations. Those are the works of the law.

God forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. Colossians 2:14.

DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED CONFESSION TO THE CROSS? DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED FORGIVING YOUR BROTHER TO THE CROSS? DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED STOP LUSTING WITH YOUR EYES TO THE CROSS!

Works are ANYTHING and EVERYTHING you do to please (good works) or displease (bad works) God. If you do them to obtain justification or to maintain justification or to obtain heaven or to maintain entrance into heaven that is WORKS FOR SALVATION.

On the other hand, if you motive for doing them is simply LOVE to God for what HE HAS DONE for you, then they have nothing to do with getting saved, maintaining saved condition or entering heaven or condemned from heaven but are simply CONSEQUENCES of salvation, fruits of salvation, evidences of salvation but NOTHING to do with obtaining, maintaining salvation or entering or not entering heaven.

Your works are what YOU THINK AND DO - YOUR ACTIVITY negatively or positively.

"works" or "deeds" of the law are simply those attitudes and actions that are done in keeping with what God commands or defines to be right.

 

[Moriah]

Is it therefore necessary to keep these commands in order to be saved, and then, secondly, in order to keep on being in a state of saving grace?

Jesus saved me after I started to obey him. Jesus revealed himself to me in a powerful way after I obeyed him. It is just as His Word said.

God gave me His Holy Spirit. I delight in the fear of the Lord. Do you have any idea what a wonderful thing it is to delight in the fear of the Lord?

How do you even try to get rid of sin if you have no real need to? It is awesome to obey God and get sin out of your life.

I love doing what God says to do. I love trusting Him, and God is patient and merciful.

You have told me before that you lose to the desires of your flesh daily. Would you like to know how you could be more than just a conqueror?

 

[The Biblicist]

Jesus saved me after I started to obey him.

You never loved God first, and you never served God first. You had to be FIRST created in Christ Jesus "UNTO" good works not the vice versa. You cannot create anything and that is why Paul says we are "HIS WORKmanship CREATED in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" not "good works UNTO being created in Christ Jesus. Good works do not precede but follow!

Jesus saves no one because of their obedience to Him! No one! Repentance and faith are not your works but are the state/condition of the heart that either receives the works of Christ or rejects them or receives sin or rejects sin.

 

[Moriah]

You never loved God first, and you never served God first. You had to be FIRST created in Christ Jesus "UNTO" good works not the vice versa.

You believe in manufactured beliefs.

You cannot create anything and that is why Paul says we are "HIS WORKmanship CREATED in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" not "good works UNTO being created in Christ Jesus. Good works do not precede but follow!

I got Jesus’ teachings, I obeyed what Jesus said, and Jesus saved me. That is CREATED IN JESUS TO DO GOOD WORKS.

Jesus saves no one because of their obedience to Him! No one! Repentance and faith are not your works but are the state/condition of the heart that either receives the works of Christ or rejects them or receives sin or rejects sin.

What you say makes no sense. It is some kind of double talk.

 

[DHK]

Jesus saved me after I started to obey him. Jesus revealed himself to me in a powerful way after I obeyed him. It is just as His Word said.

If you had to obey him instead of trust him then was it reformation or regeneration?
If He revealed Himself to you in a wonderful way, is your salvation based one experience or the Word?
Just clarifying.

God gave me His Holy Spirit. I delight in the fear of the Lord. Do you have any idea what a wonderful thing it is to delight in the fear of the Lord?

Yes I do. However if you don't believe in OSAS, then do you lose the indwelling of the Holy Spirit if you do sin? If the Holy Spirit goes away how do you get Him back again? As for me, I am eternally secure in the hand of God. I know that the Holy Spirit will never leave, even if I do sin.

How do you even try to get rid of sin if you have no real need to? It is awesome to obey God and get sin out of your life.

I have no need to sin; no desire to sin; no cause to sin. The Holy Spirit dwells within me. I obey my Lord and serve Him.
But there are two facts that I face, and I do because I believe the Bible, and because I see these truths, not only in my life, but in every person's life that I have ever encountered, including yours.
1. We all have a sin nature. It is evidenced in the way people express themselves in their writings, their speech, their words, their anger, their pride. It is expressed in lies, covetousness, lust. It is expressed in the things that they don't do: lack of reading and studying the Word, lack of prayer, lack of witnessing, a general lack of love for the Lord. It is shown in a lack of evidence of the fruit of the Spirit.

2. As a consequence of the point above we all sin. You sin. I sin. The Apostle Paul sinned. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." If you say that you do not sin you call Christ a liar and the truth is not in you. We all sin.
So what happens when you sin? Does the Holy Spirit leave you?
You have a sin nature, and you sin.

I love doing what God says to do. I love trusting Him, and God is patient and merciful.

I don't doubt you one bit. I commend you for it.
But you also have an old nature, a sin nature. And that sin nature delights in the sins of the flesh, and at times is stronger than the mind that wants to obey God, and thus you fall and give into the lusts of the flesh and sin, even though you really didn't want to in the first place. The hard part to admit to yourself is that you really enjoy your sin. Your flesh does. That is why they are called sins of the flesh.

You have told me before that you lose to the desires of your flesh daily. Would you like to know how you could be more than just a conqueror?

I know how to be more than a conqueror, but do you?
In order to be a conqueror, you must first admit that you have a need to conquer. What do you have to conquer? How many sins? Are you an overcomer? What sins do you have to overcome? In order to be an overcomer, a conqueror, you must have something to overcome, something to conquer, and that my friend is your own sin.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

 

[Moriah]

If you had to obey him instead of trust him then was it reformation or regeneration?

I obeyed Him and trusted Him. As for reformation or regeneration, please use scripture. If you are talking about what is said in Titus 3, then that is about Jesus appearing to us and coming to earth the first time, and why God saved us, because the kindness and love of God , not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. That does not mean we do not have to obey after Jesus came to earth and gave us his teachings.

If He revealed Himself to you in a wonderful way, is your salvation based one experience or the Word?
Just clarifying.

Do you not pay attention to what I post? I gave you scripture of how I was saved.

Yes I do. However if you don't believe in OSAS, then do you lose the indwelling of the Holy Spirit if you do sin?

When I sin, I ask for forgiveness. That is what the Word of God says to do. I feel great remorse when I sin.

If the Holy Spirit goes away how do you get Him back again?

I am sure of my salvation because I obey the Lord.

As for me, I am eternally secure in the hand of God. I know that the Holy Spirit will never leave, even if I do sin. I have no need to sin; no desire to sin; no cause to sin. The Holy Spirit dwells within me. I obey my Lord and serve Him.

That is not what you said to me in another thread about you and sin. That is not what you say at your very next sentence.

But there are two facts that I face, and I do because I believe the Bible, and because I see these truths, not only in my life, but in every person's life that I have ever encountered, including yours.

First, do not speak for me. You are not God. You like to falsely accuse others I have watched this myself.

1. We all have a sin nature. It is evidenced in the way people express themselves in their writings, their speech, their words, their anger, their pride. It is expressed in lies, covetousness, lust. It is expressed in the things that they don't do: lack of reading and studying the Word, lack of prayer, lack of witnessing, a general lack of love for the Lord. It is shown in a lack of evidence of the fruit of the Spirit.

Sounds to me that you are into accusing, and you sound as if you are a false judge. You claim to know people are sinning in the way they write, even when they do not cuss at others. You claim to know that all anger is sin. You claim to know that all lust. Again, you are an accuser, and a false one at that.

2. As a consequence of the point above we all sin. You sin. I sin. The Apostle Paul sinned. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." If you say that you do not sin you call Christ a liar and the truth is not in you. We all sin.

Not all sin like you. You do not even see that you quote a scripture about admitting sin to be saved, verses after one is saved. You should not speak for others in saying they sin like you, and you do not know for sure about someone’s life. I do not believe you are a righteous judge, not at all.

So what happens when you sin? Does the Holy Spirit leave you?

Did you not already ask this question?
I know that Saul had the Spirit of God and God took it away. I know that David had the Spirit of God, sinned greatly, and prayed that God would not take His Spirit away from him.

You have a sin nature, and you sin.

You need to live through the Spirit, and do so all the time. Keep trying.

I don't doubt you one bit. I commend you for it. But you also have an old nature, a sin nature. And that sin nature delights in the sins of the flesh, and at times is stronger than the mind that wants to obey God, and thus you fall and give into the lusts of the flesh and sin, even though you really didn't want to in the first place. The hard part to admit to yourself is that you really enjoy your sin. Your flesh does. That is why they are called sins of the flesh.

No way, that is you. God says to hate what is evil, and I do. God will bless you if you OBEY Him. You admit here that you lose at sinning. You admit here that you are under the power of sin and not an over comer. You admit that you enjoy your sin.

I know how to be more than a conqueror, but do you?In order to be a conqueror, you must first admit that you have a need to conquer.

You have not conquered sin, and you want to tell me how to conquer it.

What do you have to conquer? How many sins? Are you an overcomer? What sins do you have to overcome? In order to be an overcomer, a conqueror, you must have something to overcome, something to conquer, and that my friend is your own sin.

According to you, you still sin all the time, you lose all the time and you like it. You do not have the power to overcome. You have admitted it yourself.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Perhaps he "believed" as you do and tried to work for his salvation and found out all it did was leave him a tired, weary failure. Many people give up because they grow tired of working for God's love when all they had to do was believe and rest in it. That's why it's called GRACE.

If one is ignorant of something and knows not of what she speaks, she should keep her mouth shut instead of misrepresenting another's views and position.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

First, it is impossible that you a mere mortal can know or look at this man's heart before or after his apostasy and say with absolute certainty he was ever a true child of God.

Second, 1 John 2:18-19 explicitly addresses plural "anti-christs" not merely the spirit of the anti-christ but those turned against Christ and explicitly denies that such were ever indeed true children of God.


18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The preceding context is a directive that true children of God love not the world or the things in the world (vv. 15-17) as any who loves the world is proof that the "love of God" is not in them. That is what introduces verses 18-19 or proof that the love of God is NOT IN THEM.

There is a singular "anti-christ" that will come but John writes that RIGHT NOW there are "MANY ANTI-CHRISTS" or those who have turned against Christ.

1. They went out "FROM US" - once were professed Christians who departed from that profession.

2. They were not "OF US" - It takes more than a profession to be a Christian

3. Because "IF THEY HAD BEEN OF US" - If they had been GENUINE Christians

4. "THEY WOULD HAVE NO DOUBT CONTINUED WITH US" - Geniune Christians do no depart from the faith.

5. "BUT THEY WENT OUT" These did depart from their PROFESSION not from genuine salvation.

6. "THAT IT MIGHT BE MADE MANIFEST" - no human can look at the heart becuase it is not manifest but their departure from Christ proves one thing:

7. "THAT THEY WERE NOT ALL OF US" - Turning against Christ is "MANIFEST" PROOF of a false profession.

I am not prooftexting here, but giving an exposition of verse 19 in its immediate context.

Hence, the Word of God demands that manifest apostasy is proof of false profession not true profession turned false.

The fact that he was a convert of Kevin Hovand, intellectual evidence, indicates he was a INTELLECTUAL convert rather than a HEART convert. "WITH THE HEART man believeth..."

I didn't say that I or anyone else could be 100%, infallibly certain of someone else's salvation. His trust in Kent Hovind was just one part of his experience. The guy was young and impressionable, but I fully believe he was saved.

I appreciate the points that you posted, and I know you believe that they are strong evidence of your position. And I truly don't want to ridicule someone's strongly held belief; heck, my mom believes this as strongly as you do.

But you know I don't, and I have verses that I believe support my position, as well.

Whatever the case, I am praying and I ask your prayers for this person, that he will come back to God.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Since I have been guilty of this, I think I can speak about it: It really does no good and actually does harm for us to be calling each other liars. Can we not accept that we all have strongly held beliefs which we hold to be true, based on our reading of the scriptures? Do not Baptists uphold the right of every individual to do precisely this?

I'll say right now that I am sorry for calling anyone a liar here. I'm not saying that I won't do it again in the heat of the moment, but I recognize it is wrong, and I will try very hard, God helping me, not to do it again.

We all should recognize and realize that we all come from quite varied backgrounds, and those experiences have helped to shape us into what we are today and the positions we hold. I pray and ask for mutual forbearance here, and when I stumble and fall in this regard, I ask for forgiveness. Said by a passionate Irish/English/Indian.

 

[annsni]

I was reading my Bible this morning and read this passage.

1Corinthians 1:4-8

4 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,
5 that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge-
6 even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you-
7 so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Praise God that it is Jesus Christ who will sustain me to the end!

 

[DaChaser1]

God warns us in many scriptures that we can lose our salvation.

These scriptures show us plainly and simply that God can cut us off.

Roman11:17-22

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."

20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

We see from these scriptures that the people spoken of whom God can also cut off are the Gentiles. The scriptures say to the Gentiles that God can cut them off; this shows that they did have salvation.

For anyone to still deny the Word of God, and teach that we CANNOT lose our salvation, those people ARE GOING AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD.

Does NOT refer to a Christian able to lose salvation, but to the fact that the Lord cut off from isreal those who were NOT of isreal...

Not all isreal was saved by God, only His faithful remnant, that had faith in coming messiah, who were saved, rest were 'cut off', NOt being seed of Abraham!

So IF you want to use this verse to support fact that Only saved people are part of peoples of God...

good!

Impossible for a true believer to be lost again, as they would have to deny jesus. and we have the new natures within us, and the sealing by/off the HS, that will make sure that once saved/always saved by grace of God!

 

[The Biblicist]

You believe in manufactured beliefs.

I simply quoted Paul and Paul gives the true order - "For we are HIS WORKmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" whereas your soteriology teaches the exact reverse "For we do good works UNTO God's workmanship to be created in Christ Jesus."

Hence, you are charging the apostle with manufactured beliefs because he is the one that placed "good works" AFTER this new creation by God not BEFORE as YOU DO!

I got Jesus’ teachings, I obeyed what Jesus said, and Jesus saved me. That is CREATED IN JESUS TO DO GOOD WORKS.

No it is not! Faith in Christ is not a good work or even a work at all. Faith in the gospel is RECEIVING not DOING! Faith is previously stated in Ephesians 2:8-9 to be "NOT OF WORKS, lets any man should boast" just like YOU ARE BOASTING right now that "I" got..."I" obeyed....."

No man CAN come to Christ but the Father draw....except it were given unto him of the Father." so don't tell me what "I" can do in regard to faith. You can do nothing until you have been given a WANT to by God - For it is God that worketh in us both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure"!!

 

[DaChaser1]

I simply quoted Paul and Paul gives the true order - "For we are HIS WORKmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" whereas your soteriology teaches the exact reverse "For we do good works UNTO God's workmanship to be created in Christ Jesus."

Hence, you are charging the apostle with manufactured beliefs because he is the one that placed "good works" AFTER this new creation by God not BEFORE as YOU DO!



No it is not! Faith in Christ is not a good work or even a work at all. Faith in the gospel is RECEIVING not DOING! Faith is previously stated in Ephesians 2:8-9 to be "NOT OF WORKS, lets any man should boast" just like YOU ARE BOASTING right now that "I" got..."I" obeyed....."

No man CAN come to Christ but the Father draw....except it were given unto him of the Father." so don't tell me what "I" can do in regard to faith. You can do nothing until you have been given a WANT to by God - For it is God that worketh in us both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure"!!

HOW much faith can spiritually dead people be able to generate in and of themselves?

 

[gb93433]

The WORKS of the law were circumcision. The works of the law is a written code with regulations, for worship, and an earthly sanctuary. Gifts and sacrifices were required for worship and the earthly sanctuary. They a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washing---external regulations. Those are the works of the law.

God forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. Colossians 2:14.

DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED CONFESSION TO THE CROSS? DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED FORGIVING YOUR BROTHER TO THE CROSS? DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED STOP LUSTING WITH YOUR EYES TO THE CROSS!

As I read what you wrote I wondered what that had to do with salvation and OSAS.

 

[The Biblicist]

HOW much faith can spiritually dead people be able to generate in and of themselves?

Just about as much air the lungs of a physical dead person can generate in and of themselves.

 

[gb93433]

Just about as much air the lungs of a physical dead person can generate in and of themselves.

Could it be the faith of a mustard seed?

 

[The Biblicist]

Could it be the faith of a mustard seed?

The question of faith is not that it is foreign the lost people as they exercise it every day. When they sit down on a chair they are exercising faith in that chair for a particular reason.

The real issue is what does it take for a lost person to choose to believe in Jesus Christ? It takes something foreign to their nature as Jesus says "no man CAN come to me except the Father draw him." If any man could come to Christ by simply exercising common faith then this statement by Christ would be rediculous.

There are prerequisites necessary for man to receive Christ by faith and it is the lack of these prequisites that makes Christ say that "no man CAN come to me."

John 6:45 and 6:65 deal with the necessary prequisites and the source from which they are derived. John 6:65 says "except it were GIVEN to them OF THE FATHER."

The Father is the source from whence these prerequisites originate and they must be "GIVEN" to them or no man "can" come.

This denies that man has these prerequisites by nature. This demands they are received from heaven (The Father) in order for man to "come" to Christ.

John 6:65 describes these prerequistes as being "taught" not by men but by the Father so that they have "learned" from the Father. Jesus told Simon Bar Jona, "blessed art thou Simon Bar Jona for FLESH AND BLOOD hath not REVEALED this unto thee but MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN."

In other words the Father must impart a certain type of revelation to in the inward man before man can come to Christ through faith. Paul said it this way concerning his own salvation experience that brought him to Christ.

Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me,

This internal revelation by God is by express command in connection with the preaching of the gospel:

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This is a work of God performed within man before he is able to believe in Christ that is a "revelation" by His command similar to His command to call light into existence in Genesis 1:3.

Romans 11:17 says that "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by God's WORD OF COMMAND (Gr. Rhema).

"Our gospel came not to you in WORD ONLY but in POWER and IN THE HOLY SPIRIT and in MUCH ASSURANCE...." - 1 Thes. 1:5

Significantly, Jesus says that "EVERYONE" not merely some, but "EVERYONE" that hath heard and learned of the Father "COMETH TO THE SON" and so this internal revelation is ALWAYS EFFECTUAL to producing faith to receive Christ and that is precisely why Jesus previously said, "ALL the Father GIVETH (in the sense of his internal revelation - "except it were GIVEN them OF THE FATHER") shall come to me......And this is the will of the Father which sent me that OF ALL which he hath given me (in this sense) I WILL LOSE NOTHING but should raise IT up at the last day."

Hence, everyone has faith but none CAN come to Christ by faith except the "Father DRAW him....except it were given him of the father." This drawing is being given DIVINE REVELATION by direct command of God that comes in effectual power in connection with the preaching of the gospel.

 

[gb93433]

The real issue is what does it take for a lost person to choose to believe in Jesus Christ? It takes something foreign to their nature as Jesus says "no man CAN come to me except the Father draw him." If any man could come to Christ by simply exercising common faith then this statement by Christ would be rediculous.

John 16:7-11, "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

So is your question about the faith of a non-believer a proper question?

People have faith in many things but to be spiritually alive their faith must be focused on Jesus.