Osas?

[DaChaser1]

The question of faith is not that it is foreign the lost people as they exercise it every day. When they sit down on a chair they are exercising faith in that chair for a particular reason.

The real issue is what does it take for a lost person to choose to believe in Jesus Christ? It takes something foreign to their nature as Jesus says "no man CAN come to me except the Father draw him." If any man could come to Christ by simply exercising common faith then this statement by Christ would be rediculous.

There are prerequisites necessary for man to receive Christ by faith and it is the lack of these prequisites that makes Christ say that "no man CAN come to me."

John 6:45 and 6:65 deal with the necessary prequisites and the source from which they are derived. John 6:65 says "except it were GIVEN to them OF THE FATHER."

The Father is the source from whence these prerequisites originate and they must be "GIVEN" to them or no man "can" come.

This denies that man has these prerequisites by nature. This demands they are received from heaven (The Father) in order for man to "come" to Christ.

John 6:65 describes these prerequistes as being "taught" not by men but by the Father so that they have "learned" from the Father. Jesus told Simon Bar Jona, "blessed art thou Simon Bar Jona for FLESH AND BLOOD hath not REVEALED this unto thee but MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN."

In other words the Father must impart a certain type of revelation to in the inward man before man can come to Christ through faith. Paul said it this way concerning his own salvation experience that brought him to Christ.

Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me,

This internal revelation by God is by express command in connection with the preaching of the gospel:

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This is a work of God performed within man before he is able to believe in Christ that is a "revelation" by His command similar to His command to call light into existence in Genesis 1:3.

Romans 11:17 says that "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by God's WORD OF COMMAND (Gr. Rhema).

"Our gospel came not to you in WORD ONLY but in POWER and IN THE HOLY SPIRIT and in MUCH ASSURANCE...." - 1 Thes. 1:5

Significantly, Jesus says that "EVERYONE" not merely some, but "EVERYONE" that hath heard and learned of the Father "COMETH TO THE SON" and so this internal revelation is ALWAYS EFFECTUAL to producing faith to receive Christ and that is precisely why Jesus previously said, "ALL the Father GIVETH (in the sense of his internal revelation - "except it were GIVEN them OF THE FATHER") shall come to me......And this is the will of the Father which sent me that OF ALL which he hath given me (in this sense) I WILL LOSE NOTHING but should raise IT up at the last day."

Hence, everyone has faith but none CAN come to Christ by faith except the "Father DRAW him....except it were given him of the father." This drawing is being given DIVINE REVELATION by direct command of God that comes in effectual power in connection with the preaching of the gospel.

Ties into depravity of man...

man can and does have faith in same fashion as the Demons and satan do, as they "believe" about facts of jesus, God etc

Apart from the saving work of God on their behalf though, cannot enter into "saving faith!"

 

[Moriah]

Does NOT refer to a Christian able to lose salvation, but to the fact that the Lord cut off from isreal those who were NOT of isreal...
Not all isreal was saved by God, only His faithful remnant, that had faith in coming messiah, who were saved, rest were 'cut off', NOt being seed of Abraham!
So IF you want to use this verse to support fact that Only saved people are part of peoples of God...
good!

Impossible for a true believer to be lost again, as they would have to deny jesus. and we have the new natures within us, and the sealing by/off the HS, that will make sure that once saved/always saved by grace of God!

The branches that were CUT off were Jews. The Jews were God's people.

Romans 3:3 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify faithfulness?
Romans 3:4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

Answer this, why was God angry so much in the Old Testament with His people?

You keep denying the truth that all the Jews who followed the law were God's people. You make it like being called God's people was no big deal. NOT ALL WERE GOD"S PEOPLE, ONLY THE JEWS.

Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

WHAT DID THEY FALL FROM IF IT WAS NOT SALVATION? The Jews who were cut off can be grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief.
As for Christians, do you not see how we are warned that we too will be cut off if we do not continue in God's kindness? Why do you continually say that no Christian can lose salvation when Romans 11:22 tells you plainly and simply they can! Stop saying no Christian would ever choose to lose their salvation. You are not every Christian. Stop saying they were not really saved to begin with! If they would have CONTINUED THEY WOULD HAVE HAD ETERNAL LIFE. Stop ignoring the Word of God.

 

[Moriah]

I simply quoted Paul and Paul gives the true order - "For we are HIS WORKmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" whereas your soteriology teaches the exact reverse "For we do good works UNTO God's workmanship to be created in Christ Jesus."
Hence, you are charging the apostle with manufactured beliefs because he is the one that placed "good works" AFTER this new creation by God not BEFORE as YOU DO!

You do not understand the scriptures. You go against the Word of God.

No it is not! Faith in Christ is not a good work or even a work at all. Faith in the gospel is RECEIVING not DOING! Faith is previously stated in Ephesians 2:8-9 to be "NOT OF WORKS, lets any man should boast" just like YOU ARE BOASTING right now that "I" got..."I" obeyed....."

We are not to do the works of the law to be saved. WE ARE TO GET JESUS" TEACHINGS AND OBEY THEM. See John 14:23.

No man CAN come to Christ but the Father draw....except it were given unto him of the Father." so don't tell me what "I" can do in regard to faith. You can do nothing until you have been given a WANT to by God - For it is God that worketh in us both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure"!!

God works in us to will and to do good AFTER we are saved. HE SUSTAINS US. THAT does NOT mean we do not have to do ANYTHING BEFORE WE ARE SAVED. The Bible says we do not get the Holy Spirit until we OBEY.
You keep quoting John 6 to prove something that is not there. John 6 is about ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVED IN GOD BEFORE JESUS CAME WERE ALLOWED TO COME TO JESUS. LATER, WHEN JESUS WAS LIFTED UP, THEN ALL CAN COME TO HIM.
We DRAW near to God because of a better HOPE given us than that of the law; we hope in the perfection we receive through Jesus. See Hebrews 7:18, 19.
Jesus died for the sins of the world, so that ALL men could be saved.

 

[Amy.G]

The Jews were God's chosen nation. They were sanctified (set apart) for God's purpose of revealing Himself to the world. They were the light of the world. But that does NOT mean that every single Jew was a believer in God or that every single Jew was saved. Jesus made this perfectly clear when He called the Pharisees white washed tombs and sons of the devil. Remember Judas was a Jew as well and was called the son of perdition.

The branches that were cut off were NOT Jews that LOST their salvation, but were the ones that never had it to begin with. The branches were DEAD.

 

[Moriah]

As I read what you wrote I wondered what that had to do with salvation and OSAS.

Do you want to understand? It would take some time out of my day, but I could explain it to you if you would like.

 

[Moriah]

The Jews were God's chosen nation. They were sanctified (set apart) for God's purpose of revealing Himself to the world. They were the light of the world. But that does NOT mean that every single Jew was a believer in God or that every single Jew was saved. Jesus made this perfectly clear when He called the Pharisees white washed tombs and sons of the devil. Remember Judas was a Jew as well and was called the son of perdition.

The branches that were cut off were NOT Jews that LOST their salvation, but were the ones that never had it to begin with. The branches were DEAD.

If you do not have anything new to say, or a better explanation to what you say, then stop repeating the same false thing.

 

[Amy.G]

If you do not have anything new to say, or a better explanation to what you say, then stop repeating the same false thing.

Same to you.

 

[Moriah]

Same to you.

No, not same to me.

 

[DaChaser1]

No, not same to me.

God said that he IS His Will that NONE would perish that were saved by Christ...
jesus said that ALL the Father gave him , he WILL rise up, NONE will be lost...

Holy Spirit sealed us UNTIL day of final redemption, salvation process completed at secind coming...

ALL 3 of the Godhead saved they will FOREVER secure and keep us, as also does author of hebrews, jesus as high Priest died in order to save FOREVER those saved by Him...

Are you greater/smarter then God?

 

[Amy.G]

God said that he IS His Will that NONE would perish that were saved by Christ...
jesus said that ALL the Father gave him , he WILL rise up, NONE will be lost...

Holy Spirit sealed us UNTIL day of final redemption, salvation process completed at secind coming...

ALL 3 of the Godhead saved they will FOREVER secure and keep us, as also does author of hebrews, jesus as high Priest died in order to save FOREVER those saved by Him...

Are you greater/smarter then God?

People who work for salvation or work to keep salvation do not understand grace. They also do not understand the depth of what Christ did on the cross, nor they understand the depth of God's love for His children.

 

[Moriah]

God said that he IS His Will that NONE would perish that were saved by Christ...
jesus said that ALL the Father gave him , he WILL rise up, NONE will be lost...

Holy Spirit sealed us UNTIL day of final redemption, salvation process completed at secind coming...

ALL 3 of the Godhead saved they will FOREVER secure and keep us, as also does author of hebrews, jesus as high Priest died in order to save FOREVER those saved by Him...

Are you greater/smarter then God?

You are quoting scripture of when people who were God's FIRST had to THEN GO TO JESUS. HOWEVER, SINCE JESUS CAME, We ALL have to go THROUGH JESUS TO GET TO GOD. You do not understand the scriptures.

 

[Amy.G]

You are quoting scripture of when people who were God's FIRST had to THEN GO TO JESUS. HOWEVER, SINCE JESUS CAME, We ALL have to go THROUGH JESUS TO GET TO GOD. You do not understand the scriptures.

We ALL understand that! Of course we have to go through Jesus to get to the Father. They are ONE!

What we disagree with is works salvation. I am God's child. He will never leave me nor forsake me. THAT is scripture!

 

[Moriah]

People who work for salvation or work to keep salvation do not understand grace. They also do not understand the depth of what Christ did on the cross, nor they understand the depth of God's love for His children.

Do you think it is a work when a woman stops cheating on her husband?

Do you think it is a work when a hungry brother comes to visit you and you offer him food?

Do you think it is a work to ask for forgiveness and to forgive others?

You do NOT understand what it is to work for salvation.

Colossians 2:14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

God nailed the written code with its regulations to the cross, that is about circumcision and observing special days and festivals, that is about sin and gift offerings and external cleansings for worship in an earthly sanctuary.
God DID NOT NAIL REPENTING TO THE CROSS. God DID NAIL STEALING TO THE CROSS. God did not nail feeding your hungry brother to the cross.

 

[Amy.G]

Do you think it is a work when a woman stops cheating on her husband?

Do you think it is a work when a hungry brother comes to visit you and you offer him food?

Do you think it is a work to ask for forgiveness and to forgive others?

You do NOT understand what it is to work for salvation.

Colossians 2:14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

God nailed the written code with its regulations to the cross, that is about circumcision and observing special days and festivals, that is about sin and gift offerings and external cleansings for worship in an earthly sanctuary.
God DID NOT NAIL REPENTING TO THE CROSS. God DID NAIL STEALING TO THE CROSS. God did not nail feeding your hungry brother to the cross.

Yes. Those are works. And they are done by BELIEVERS through the POWER of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Moriah]

Yes. Those are works. And they are done by BELIEVERS through the POWER of the Holy Spirit.

You claim God nailed them to the cross and that we do not have to do those things anymore, just like we do NOT have to offer animals anymore, just like we do not have to do circumcisions anymore.

You are wrong.

 

[Amy.G]

You claim God nailed them to the cross and that we do not have to do those things anymore, just like we do NOT have to offer animals anymore, just like we do not have to do circumcisions anymore.

You are wrong.

We do not do works to get saved or to stay saved! Can you NOT understand the difference????

 

[Moriah]

We do not do works to get saved or to stay saved! Can you NOT understand the difference????

You said God nailed committing adultery to the cross. You said God nailed forgiving your brother to the cross. Those are NOT works. Circumcision is a work, sin offerings and gift offerings are works. You do not understand what works of the law are, and you do not understand that we have to obey Jesus, and that Jesus will give us the Holy Spirit when we obey. The yolk of Jesus is easy and his burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30.

 

[DHK]

I obeyed Him and trusted Him. As for reformation or regeneration, please use scripture. If you are talking about what is said in Titus 3, then that is about Jesus appearing to us and coming to earth the first time, and why God saved us, because the kindness and love of God , not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. That does not mean we do not have to obey after Jesus came to earth and gave us his teachings.

Every Christian ought to know the difference between reformation and regeneration.
1. Reformation is when a person realizes that he has been doing bad things all his life. He wants to make a change. He wants to be a better person. So he begins a change in his life and starts to do "good", starts to be a better man, live more righteously. But he doesn't need Christ to do that. It is all human effort.

You said "Jesus saved me after I started to obey him."
--That is human effort, reformation. You are saying that your good works led you to salvation. But the Bible declares that our good works are nothing but "filthy rags" in the sight of God (Isa.64:4). Thus if your salvation is based on your good works, as you imply, then your salvation would be questionable. No one is saved according to their works.

2. Regeneration is the operation of the Holy Spirit on the heart of man, through the Word of God. It is also described as the new birth. Have you been born again? This is regeneration. I am not a Calvinist so my explanation will differ from theirs. Jesus said you must be born again. What is necessary to be born again?

He said that the Holy Spirit is necessary. You must be born of water and the Spirit. I believe that water represents the Word, but I am not going to give detailed explanation here for sake of space and time.

He said that the Word of God is necessary.
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--Born again...by the word of God.
--Thus to be born again the Holy Spirit is essential and the word of God is essential. God uses the Holy Spirit working through his Word to bring a person to Christ, or to regenerate him.

Have you been reformed or regenerated? The one involves works; the other is a work of the Holy Spirit.

Do you not pay attention to what I post? I gave you scripture of how I was saved.

Perhaps it was not clear enough.

When I sin, I ask for forgiveness. That is what the Word of God says to do. I feel great remorse when I sin.

That is not what I asked. You don't believe in eternal security. So when you do sin does the Holy Spirit leave you? David had that fear. Here was his prayer:

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
--I would think that a person who believes that his salvation can be lost would also believe that the Holy Spirit could be taken from him. Do you also live in that fear?

I am sure of my salvation because I obey the Lord.

If you are sure of your salvation, isn't that the same as OSAS?
I am sure of my salvation too. I also obey the Lord. I know two things.
I know that I will sin; I know that you will sin. I know that you will sin, because you told me you will sin. You admitted to me that you were not sinless. You did do that didn't you? Are you sinless?
If you are not sinless, then you know that at some point you will sin.
We both will. I am sure of my salvation, and you are sure of yours.
You seemed to just admit to OSAS.

That is not what you said to me in another thread about you and sin. That is not what you say at your very next sentence.

I simply stated to you the doctrine of eternal security which I have always believed. I am safe in the hand of Jesus.

First, do not speak for me. You are not God. You like to falsely accuse others I have watched this myself.

I simply said there are two facts that I encounter. These facts are right out of the Bible. I am speaking for God. I am only the messenger. The message is God's Word. There is no accusation here.

Sounds to me that you are into accusing, and you sound as if you are a false judge. You claim to know people are sinning in the way they write, even when they do not cuss at others. You claim to know that all anger is sin. You claim to know that all lust. Again, you are an accuser, and a false one at that.

I never accused anyone personally. Go back and read my post. All people have a sin nature. Then I stated how that sin nature manifests itself. And I only stated some of the more common ways. I didn't accuse anyone of anything. I didn't judge anyone. It seems to me that you are making false accusations, and judging me falsely. Therein is sin rearing its ugly face right on this board. Concerning anger (you brought it up), if you display anger on this board, is it not sin? Is lust sin? You infer that it is not? But my post didn't accuse anyone did it? Be truthful.

Not all sin like you.

1. How do I sin? I would like to know. I would like to know how you know the way I live my life, and what kind of sins I engage in? Are you God, omniscient and omnipresent? You know the things that I do??
2. Are my sins greater than your sins? Think again!

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--The smallest little lie in God's sight is just as bad as the greatest murder.
You are a sinner in God's sight and as guilty as Hitler when it comes to sin.
It only takes one sin to be labeled a sinner. And you are not sinless!

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
--Sin is simply a transgression of the law. You have transgressed the law;
Hitler has transgressed the law. You are no different. You are both sinners in God's sight. The only difference (if you are saved), is this:
Hitler is a sinner.
You are a sinner, saved by grace. Nevertheless you are both sinners.

You do not even see that you quote a scripture about admitting sin to be saved, verses after one is saved.

This verse was written to Christians:
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
--Are you sinless?
You are not sinless. You cannot be sinless because you have a sin nature. If you didn't have a sin nature then the possibility of being sinless would be there. But you cannot remain sinless, can you?

You should not speak for others in saying they sin like you, and you do not know for sure about someone’s life. I do not believe you are a righteous judge, not at all.

You are the one that has falsely accused me; falsely judged me. Practice what you preach. I am simply a messenger for God's Word. I tell you the outcome of having a sin nature. It is sin. It is unavoidable.

Did you not already ask this question?
I know that Saul had the Spirit of God and God took it away. I know that David had the Spirit of God, sinned greatly, and prayed that God would not take His Spirit away from him.

And does he take it away from you?
You haven't answered the question yet. I guess that is why I asked it more than once. I figured you would avoid it.

You need to live through the Spirit, and do so all the time. Keep trying.

No, I don't try. I trust. And therefore I do.

No way, that is you. God says to hate what is evil, and I do. God will bless you if you OBEY Him. You admit here that you lose at sinning. You admit here that you are under the power of sin and not an over comer. You admit that you enjoy your sin.

Paul said: "I do the things I don't want to do, and the things I don't want to do, those I do."
He said: "It is not I but sin that dwelleth in me."
--Paul was honest enough to admit that in his Christian life he had a battle with sin. And sometimes sin got the upper hand. You are not honest enough to admit that. Paul speaks of a battle against sin in Eph.6:11-18, when he commands us to put on the whole armour of God.
He speaks of the same battle again, commanding us to bring into captivity every imagination that exalts itself against God in 2Cor.10:3-5.
But you deny that there is a war or even a battle with sin that goes on.
You deny the Scriptures on this very topic.

You have not conquered sin, and you want to tell me how to conquer it.

You don't even want to admit that there is sin that needs to be conquered. You live in a state of denial.

According to you, you still sin all the time, you lose all the time and you like it. You do not have the power to overcome. You have admitted it yourself.

That is a false accusation, a misrepresentation of what I have said; a lie.

 

[Moriah]

I am sure of my salvation too. I also obey the Lord. I know two things.
I know that I will sin; I know that you will sin. I know that you will sin, because you told me you will sin. You admitted to me that you were not sinless. You did do that didn't you? Are you sinless?
If you are not sinless, then you know that at some point you will sin.
We both will. I am sure of my salvation, and you are sure of yours.

I do not sin as you say I do. You have not gotten anywhere in your life with sin after claiming salvation...you even admit that you enjoy it when you sin.

 

[Moriah]

But you also have an old nature, a sin nature. And that sin nature delights in the sins of the flesh, and at times is stronger than the mind that wants to obey God, and thus you fall and give into the lusts of the flesh and sin, even though you really didn't want to in the first place. The hard part to admit to yourself is that you really enjoy your sin. Your flesh does. That is why they are called sins of the flesh.

This is what DHK said about his sin nature while being a Christian. What he said is NOT the way the Bible says life is for Christians. It is not that way for me. I do not give in to the lusts of my flesh. I am also no baby Christian. I do not enjoy sin. What DHK says can only be a confession about himself, even though he tried to make this my confession.