The Called

[Crabtownboy]

But what about Romans 8:30

(Rom 8:30) and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

It is one verse and has to be factored in with the rest of the Bible. Building a doctrine on one verse is dangerous and can lead to serious mistakes. Also these are not the words of Christ and thus they must fit within his teachings and I do not believe Christ ever used the word predestined in the sense you are using that word. Remember John 3:16-17:

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

There is nothing here about either predestination nor election. Notice it says 'the world', not the elect nor the predestined. These verses are the gospel in a nutshell.

 

[gb93433]

If He called all mankind then all mankind would come.

Not according to scripture.

Mt. 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen." The chosen are the called out from the called.

 

[Forest]

What part of free will makes God weak or ineffective?

It is man that is weak and ineffective, not God.

If a lost person has no choice when it comes to salvation, then why are they punished when they are not even offered it?

My Lord is not weak and ineffective, nor is He cruel and unjust.

John

God has given man freedom to make his own choices, but man is influenced either by the flesh or by the Spirit. The natural man, void of the Spirit, will not seek to serve a spiritual God because the natural man cannot descern anything that is of a spiritual nature, 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Forest]

How so? You can offer free things (like salvation) to everyone, but only a few will accept it. Just because everyone doesnt accept salvation doesnt mean it is not offered to everyone.

John

The natural man will not, and indeed, cannot accept anything that is pf a spiritual nature like werving a spiritual God, 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Forest]

Yes, and even the Bible says the same thing :thumbs::thumbs:

John

God only calls his elect because all that he does call are predestinated, justified and gloryfied, Rom 8:30.

 

[Forest]

Yessir, it takes both God's call and man's response to be the elect.

Good point

John

God only calls his elect. The natural man will not, and indeed cannot accept anything that is of a spiritual nature, 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Forest]

Forest, excuse me here for asking an obvious question.

BUT, IF YOU HAVE ALREADY MADE UP YOUR MIND ABOUT WHO GOD CALLS, THEN WHY DID YOU EVEN ASK THE QUESTION?????

Ahhhh, yes, I see, you have an agenda.

Instead of spending your time converting lost people to Christ, you'd rather spend your time converting regular Christians to Calvinists.

But then, God will save the lost if He wants to, so why waste time trying to do God's job for Him?

Give me a break.

John

We are not in this world to eternally save souls. Preachers responsability is not to eternally save souls, but only to feed God's sheep. No one can eternally save souls, that is God's work of grace and he saved all of his elect on the cross, John 6:37-41. Christ died only for those that God gave him and he will not lose any of them, no, not one.

 

[Forest]

Many (a lot) = called
Few (not a lot) = chosen

calvinists : "they are one in the same".

:laugh:

Matt 7:13-14, All of those that go in both gates are God's elect children. The ones that go in the wide gate are those of his elect that are trusting in their good works for eternal salvation. All those that go in the strait are those that the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth to. The wide gate are the "many", and the strait gate are the "few".

 

[Forest]

I am going to say this nicely so that the mods dont give me an infraction.

But please, if you are going to dispute a biblical truth that I post, please don't reply with an untruth, and try to explain it with a verse you take out of context.

It doesnt become you

John

Can you explain Rom 8:30 in relation to the called?

 

[Tom Butler]

A general call to repent to those who cannot repent do to you not enabling them, nor could they since they were not atoned for is catamount to the greatest deception in history.

God has said to us "let us reason together". Based on the above God would have to be less than honest

Heh heh, catamount? I think you meant tantamount. Strange thing, though, I actually knew what you were trying to say.

Web, your comment raises a good question and deserves an answer. Let me take a crack at it.

The first objection I see here is that if God intended to save only some of the human race, God can't sincerely call on all men to come to Christ. Here we must appeal to the foreknowledge of God. God certainly foreknew that all men would not believe the gospel. And God certainly does not intend to save those who reject it. So, therefore, God intended to save only a part of the human race--believers. And He has made full provision through the atonement for them.

Let me quote a portion of the New Hampshire Confession of Faith:

Nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner on earth except his own inherent depravity and refusal to submit to the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is the refusal of the offer of salvation which condemns, not the lack of provision. What would be the point of making atonement for the others?

When Jesus said in Matthew 11 "Come ye, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest..." no one would argue that his call was not sincere. No one would argue that all would come, butall would agree that Jesus would give rest to all who did come. Therefore his offer was sincere to all, even though he knew that all would not come.

This is getting way too long, so I'll stop here and catch my breath.

 

[Forest]

You've got the same problem. God effectually paid the price of sin and death for His "elect", yet they still sin and die. What, was His payment insufficient?

God secured his elect to eternal life by the work of Christ on the cross, and sense that time forward, God looks upon his elect as Holy and without blame. He says their sins are as far from him as the east is from the west and He remembers their sins no more, as far as eternal salvation is concerned. Even though after God quickens his elect to a spiritual life, they still carry the burden of their fleshly nature, Paul explains this in his explination of the warfare going on inside of us, the flesh against the Spirit. The natural man only has one nature and that is the nature of the flesh.

 

[Forest]

I think it's useful here to recognize that there are two kinds of calls in play here.

One is a general call which may be resisted.
The other is the effectual call which his elect to which his elect will hear and respond.

Many will hear the gospel, which will include a call to all who hear to repent and believe.

Acts 16:14, for example, where Luke writes that God opened Lydia's heart so that she could respond to Paul's words.

This explains "many are called but few are chosen."

It also explains why Paul said that, without fail, those whom the Spirit calls are justified. It also explains why believers are "The Called."

In Acts 16:14, Lydia was already a called child of God because she worshipped God before he opened her heart. A natural person will not, and indeed, cannot worship a spiritual God because they cannot descern spiritual things, 1 Cor 2:14. God only has one kind of a call, and it is effectual.

 

[Forest]

You can't take a single verse of scripture to contradict many. The scriptures repeatedly show God calling men, but men refuse.

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

God called these men, but they would not come. It doesn't say they "could not" come, it says "would not".

Luk 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

These men were called, but they all made excuses.

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;


These men were called, but they refused. Also note in vs. 23 that a man must first repent and "turn" at God's reproof, and afterward receives the Spirit.

Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

These men were called, but did not answer and refused to hear God, therefore he gave them over to be slaughtered. Notice the scripture says these men did "choose" that wherein God delighted not.

So, the scriptures do not say that everyone who is called is predestined and justified. However, all those who are predestined and are justified were called. HUGE difference.

When God calls, he calls his elect and not all of the elect will come. The incident where he called them to a wedding and one came without the wedding garment on ( the wedding garment being the righeousness of Christ). The one that did not have on the right garment was trusting in his own righteous works. Matt 7:13-14 explains this with the two gates and paths. Both gates are the elect of God, the wide gate are those who are trusting in their own good works for eternal salvation and the strait gate are those that the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth to.

 

[Forest]

You can't take a single verse of scripture to contradict many. The scriptures repeatedly show God calling men, but men refuse.

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

God called these men, but they would not come. It doesn't say they "could not" come, it says "would not".

Luk 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

These men were called, but they all made excuses.

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;


These men were called, but they refused. Also note in vs. 23 that a man must first repent and "turn" at God's reproof, and afterward receives the Spirit.

Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

These men were called, but did not answer and refused to hear God, therefore he gave them over to be slaughtered. Notice the scripture says these men did "choose" that wherein God delighted not.

So, the scriptures do not say that everyone who is called is predestined and justified. However, all those who are predestined and are justified were called. HUGE difference.

Isa 45:22, is not talking about eternal salvation but a timely deliverance.

 

[Tom Butler]

In Acts 16:14, Lydia was already a called child of God because she worshipped God before he opened her heart. A natural person will not, and indeed, cannot worship a spiritual God because they cannot descern spiritual things, 1 Cor 2:14. God only has one kind of a call, and it is effectual.

Lydia worshipped God, but the fact that she submitted to baptism tells us that she became a believer in the Lord Jesus. Paul would not have permitted her and her household to be baptized if that were not the case.

 

[Forest]

Here are some verses which contain general calls:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near;

Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


That call can be, and most always is, resisted, without the enabling of the Holy Spirit.

These are all invitations to his elect. The rest in Matt 11:28-30 is not eternal rest, but a rest that we can enjoy here in this life. Most salvation scriptures are timely deliverances and not eternal salvations.

 

[Forest]

It is one verse and has to be factored in with the rest of the Bible. Building a doctrine on one verse is dangerous and can lead to serious mistakes. Also these are not the words of Christ and thus they must fit within his teachings and I do not believe Christ ever used the word predestined in the sense you are using that word. Remember John 3:16-17:



There is nothing here about either predestination nor election. Notice it says 'the world', not the elect nor the predestined. These verses are the gospel in a nutshell.

According to Thayer's Greek translation of the word "world" in the following scriptures means, used of believers only, John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19. not all mankind.

 

[Forest]

Not according to scripture.

Mt. 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen." The chosen are the called out from the called.

God calls all of his elect and chooses only a few to reveal the truth to. Matt 7:13-14 explains this by the two gates. Those going in the wide gate are God's elect that are trusting in their good works for eternal salvation, and those going in the strait gate are the few that the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth to, which is his visiable church.

 

[Forest]

Heh heh, catamount? I think you meant tantamount. Strange thing, though, I actually knew what you were trying to say.

Web, your comment raises a good question and deserves an answer. Let me take a crack at it.

The first objection I see here is that if God intended to save only some of the human race, God can't sincerely call on all men to come to Christ. Here we must appeal to the foreknowledge of God. God certainly foreknew that all men would not believe the gospel. And God certainly does not intend to save those who reject it. So, therefore, God intended to save only a part of the human race--believers. And He has made full provision through the atonement for them.

Let me quote a portion of the New Hampshire Confession of Faith:
It is the refusal of the offer of salvation which condemns, not the lack of provision. What would be the point of making atonement for the others?

When Jesus said in Matthew 11 "Come ye, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest..." no one would argue that his call was not sincere. No one would argue that all would come, butall would agree that Jesus would give rest to all who did come. Therefore his offer was sincere to all, even though he knew that all would not come.

This is getting way too long, so I'll stop here and catch my breath.

God did look down on the children of men to see if there were any that seek after him and he saw that they were all filthy, and none did anything good, no, not one. Thats what God's foreknowledge revealed to him and what he had to choose from for his elect. Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden , take up your cross and learn of me, and I will give you rest. The rest that Jesus will give you is not eternal rest, but a rest that his children can enjoy here in this world. Those that labour and are heavy laden are those that are burdened with trying to trust in their own good works for eternal salvation. That would really be a burden on me if I had to depend upon my good works.

 

[Forest]

Lydia worshipped God, but the fact that she submitted to baptism tells us that she became a believer in the Lord Jesus. Paul would not have permitted her and her household to be baptized if that were not the case.

That still does not take away from the fact that she was already a born again child of God. She was not as the natural man is.