Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?

[Moriah]

Since Jesus was slain prior to the foundation of this age, would that not have required a people that needed saved from sin?

Jesus was not slain prior to the foundation of the world. You do not understand the scripture...that is what happens when someone has only learned from the English of the KJV.

 

[preacher4truth]

I agree with that. Doens't changed the fact that if Jesus was slain (no matter when it happened, he was always slain) However, if you go on to say that God willed man to sin or set man up so that it was inevitable that he sin. I disagree with you.

Disagree then. Following your logic, there was no need for Him to die, other than 'just in case'.

There was no plan B. He died, or was slain knowing.

That you disagree with that and with me means nothing on this end. I couldn't care less.

 

[Moriah]

note God exist outside of time space therefore if Jesus was slain he was always slain.

How do you believe in such nonsense?

 

[preacher4truth]

Jesus was not slain prior to the foundation of the world. You do not understand the scripture...that is what happens when someone has only learned from the English of the KJV.

You're clueless to what I know. You've also been taken to task for your false teachings incessantly. You know what Scripture says, not what it means. See 1 Corinthians 2 for a more vivid description of your plight.

Jesus was slain prior to the age. That doesn't fit into your theology, so you twist truth to come in line with your errant theology.

Do I use the KJV?

 

[Moriah]

You're clueless to what I know. You've also been taken to task for your false teachings incessantly. You know what Scripture says, not what it means. See 1 Corinthians 2 for a more vivid description of your plight.

Jesus was slain prior to the age. That doesn't fit into your theology, so you twist truth to come in line with your errant theology.

Do I use the KJV?

Jesus was slain on the cross, on earth, about two thousand years ago...that is when Christ's blood was shed for the sins of the world. To believe anything else is strange to say the least...it even goes against what the scriptures plainly believe. You are wrong when you say I do not know what you believe. I even know exactly what scripture you got confused.

 

[preacher4truth]

Jesus was slain on the cross, on earth, about two thousand years ago...that is when Christ's blood was shed for the sins of the world. To believe anything else is strange to say the least...it even goes against what the scriptures plainly believe. You are wrong when you say I do not know what you believe. I even know exactly what scripture you got confused.

Plainly?

You're a false teacher.

'You love the WORD', rather, you love your interpretation of the word, and in so doing, you love when the WORD succombs to your false teachings.

You present yourself as some person who naturally loves God, does good, sought God on your own without Divine assistance. Pure Pelagianism.

You've been taken to task over your false teachings. Incessantly.

Like I said, 1 Corinthians 2 shows your plight. Vividly.

:wavey:

 

[DaChaser1]

Disagree then. Following your logic, there was no need for Him to die, other than 'just in case'.

There was no plan B. He died, or was slain knowing.

That you disagree with that and with me means nothing on this end. I couldn't care less.

BOTH moderate/Hyper cals see that Jesus was slain by God, that it was predestined that the messiah would come and atone on behalf of his people...

was ALWAYS part of the plans/purposes of God...

Disagreement is wether God "caused/determined" the Fall in order to bring forth greater glory, or else He allowed it!

 

[steaver]

BOTH moderate/Hyper cals see that Jesus was slain by God, that it was predestined that the messiah would come and atone on behalf of his people...

was ALWAYS part of the plans/purposes of God...

Disagreement is wether God "caused/determined" the Fall in order to bring forth greater glory, or else He allowed it!

I don't see how there could be disagreement here. If you believe Jesus was predestined to atone then there must be a predestined reason for it since this is all one plan with one purpose, to glorify Jesus Christ. No Fall, no need for atonement.

 

[marke]

Was it Gods will and intention for Adam to bring sin into the world : For Rom 5:12 reads:
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Yes indeed it was God's will for Adam to sin. For the purpose of creation of the world was all for Christ..

It was God's will to create a bride for Himself, as alluded to when God said "It is not good that man should be alone." The first Adam's mate was Eve. The Last Adam's Bride is the Church composed of all believers. it was not God's will to force Himself on His bride, so He made a way for her to come to Him willingly, but that necessitated the entrance of sin into the world. It has never been the will of God for man to sin, but the fact that man will sin apart from the divine intervention of God is a given. God's focus was and is not on the sin, however, as we are told in 2 Cor. 5, He has reconciled the world unto Himself by the death of Christ on the cross, so that now He may justly forgive sin and save all who come to Him by faith.

God created man in such a way that the fall was inevitable, but never mind that, the whole purpose of God was in the redemption of man from that fall which He had planned before the creation of the world.

Col 1:16
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Eph 3:9-11
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
For Adam was made for a redemptive purpose; so how could adam fulfill Gods purpose without plunging all of His descendants into sin ?

It is true that the inevitable result of God giving man the ability to choose good and evil was the fall. The fact that there would have been no redemption without the fall should not be used to say God willed the fall even though it played a part in His redemptive plan. Neither should it be falsely claimed that God delighted in the death of the wicked for no other reason than to bring glory to Himself. That is a terrible thing to say about God, who sacrificed a great deal in love in order that anyone willing to come to Him might have live, regardless of persons.

The fall of man and the eternal judgment of Hell are the unwanted but unavoidable consequences of the fall of man, and not meant to be understood as consequences God could have avoided if He had wanted to.

I have yet been able to find a scripture that says all things were created for adam, but we do find a Scripture that states emphatically, that all things were created for Christ or unto Christ.

How very appropriate it is, also, that all attention should be directed on Christ, Who, unlike man, has not a selfish whisper about Him. He alone is focused entirely on the good of man and not on Himself. How fitting it is, therefore, that we love Him who first loved us and provided Himself a ransom for our deliverance from sin.

Now Christ eternal purpose was redemptive and involved the calling of the gentiles Eph 3:11, but lets pay close to the two words eternal purpose in vs 11
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eternal purpose is literally, the Eternal plan or compact that God made in eternity past, within the purpose of the everlasting covenant.
Now many say at this juncture that they believe in the eternal purpose of Christ, but I am afraid it is merely lip service to the truth of Gods eternal purpose in Christ, because the very same ones will turn right around and deny that God wanted adam to sin. They say that God would have preferred not that adam sinned, but because he did sin, God foresaw it, so then God purposed Christ as a sort of back up plan ! But what kinda nonsense is that ? Thats actually contradicting and overturning the clear scripture teaching that that the Eternal Purpose was centered in Jesus Christ or its saying that Jesus Christ was secondary to Gods purpose of adam, which thinking is actually giving the purpose of adam the preeminence over the purpose of Christ, which undermines this:
Col 1:18
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Now certainly, if Jesus Christ was a back up plan for the failure of adam, then adam had the preeminence over Christ in Gods First Purpose..

Any such suggestion that Jesus is a "back up plan" is, of course, ridiculous. Christians are chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Adam's sin, though done in direct rebellion against the Word of God, was nevertheless anticipated by God in His formation of the redemptive plan before He made the worlds, so all things still work together for good to the elect, even willful rebellion against God.

This thinking is a total repudiation of the truth that all things [ Including adam] were created by and for Jesus Christ..

God does know what He is doing and, as Abraham challenged the Lord in Gen. 18:25, the Judge of all the earth "Shall do right."

 

[Moriah]

Plainly?

You're a false teacher.

'You love the WORD', rather, you love your interpretation of the word, and in so doing, you love when the WORD succombs to your false teachings.

You present yourself as some person who naturally loves God, does good, sought God on your own without Divine assistance. Pure Pelagianism.

You've been taken to task over your false teachings. Incessantly.

Like I said, 1 Corinthians 2 shows your plight. Vividly.

You are guilty of everything you falsely accuse me. You go against so many scriptures that it would take too much room on this post to list them all. Here are some powerful scriptures that you can never legitimately explain with your false doctrines.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


9:41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.

John 15:24 If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

 

[savedbymercy]

mark

It has never been the will of God for man to sin,

Thats a lie. This world was created for a redemptive purpose in Christ Col 1:14-16

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

[preacher4truth]

You...

None of your passages have one thing to do with our discussion, and prove nothing as usual.

Plainly you're a false teacher.

I will use Thomas Watson as he describes you precisely:

This is the difference between a hypocrite and a child of God. The hypocrite is telling what good he has. A child of God complains of what he lacks. The one is glad he is so good; the other grieves he is so bad. The poor in spirit goes from ordinance to ordinance for a supply of his needs; he would gladly have his stock increased...

Many have witnessed you ascribing to yourself your own goodness, your seeking after God prior to being saved, proclamation of the good state of man including yourself outside of Gods commonwealth, embracing Pelagian hypocrisy that these things are done with no Divine aid &c. All of these things while you are deceived, thinking and proclaiming passages speaking of the regenerate good as if they are speaking of your own goodness, when the true child of God sees himself as a miserable wretch, broken, needy, poor in spirit; for of such is the kingdom, and not otherwise. In these two things we see the true child of God and those that are but false.

 

[DaChaser1]

mark



Thats a lie. This world was created for a redemptive purpose in Christ Col 1:14-16

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Guess the verse that God cannot sin, nor tempt others to sin can be disregarded now, eh?

 

[DaChaser1]

None of your passages have one thing to do with our discussion, and prove nothing as usual.

Plainly you're a false teacher.

I will use Thomas Watson as he describes you precisely:



Many have witnessed you ascribing to yourself your own goodness, your seeking after God prior to being saved, proclamation of the good state of man including yourself outside of Gods commonwealth, embracing Pelagian hypocrisy that these things are done with no Divine aid &c. All of these things while you are deceived, thinking and proclaiming passages speaking of the regenerate good as if they are speaking of your own goodness, when the true child of God sees himself as a miserable wretch, broken, needy, poor in spirit; for of such is the kingdom, and not otherwise. In these two things we see the true child of God and those that are but false.

Once you disregard the full sovereignty of God, and the spiritual deadness of man...

ALL sorts of weird theology happens!

 

[steaver]

Guess the verse that God cannot sin, nor tempt others to sin can be disregarded now, eh?

This does create an interesting dillema. God does not tempt man to sin, but God created Satan whom He uses as His agent for temptation to fulfill His purposes.

 

[DaChaser1]

This does create an interesting dillema. God does not tempt man to sin, but God created Satan whom He uses as His agent for temptation to fulfill His purposes.

God is NOT author of evil, but uses that Evil sometimes to accomplish his purposes?

So There HAD to be Evil devil and sin in His original pristine creation in order to bring His predestined plans come to pass?

 

[Moriah]

None of your passages have one thing to do with our discussion, and prove nothing as usual.

Plainly you're a false teacher.

I will use Thomas Watson as he describes you precisely:



Many have witnessed you ascribing to yourself your own goodness, your seeking after God prior to being saved, proclamation of the good state of man including yourself outside of Gods commonwealth, embracing Pelagian hypocrisy that these things are done with no Divine aid &c. All of these things while you are deceived, thinking and proclaiming passages speaking of the regenerate good as if they are speaking of your own goodness, when the true child of God sees himself as a miserable wretch, broken, needy, poor in spirit; for of such is the kingdom, and not otherwise. In these two things we see the true child of God and those that are but false.

Do you know what a hypocrite is? You have told me "none of your passages have one thing to do with our discussion, and prove nothing as usual."

Take your own words for yourself.

 

[Dustin]

Was it Gods will and intention for Adam to bring sin into the world : For Rom 5:12 reads:

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Yes indeed it was God's will for Adam to sin. For the purpose of creation of the world was all for Christ..

Col 1:16

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Eph 3:9-11

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

For Adam was made for a redemptive purpose; so how could adam fulfill Gods purpose without plunging all of His descendants into sin ?

I have yet been able to find a scripture that says all things were created for adam, but we do find a Scripture that states emphatically, that all things were created for Christ or unto Christ.

Now Christ eternal purpose was redemptive and involved the calling of the gentiles Eph 3:11, but lets pay close to the two words eternal purpose in vs 11

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Eternal purpose is literally, the Eternal plan or compact that God made in eternity past, within the purpose of the everlasting covenant.

Now many say at this juncture that they believe in the eternal purpose of Christ, but I am afraid it is merely lip service to the truth of Gods eternal purpose in Christ, because the very same ones will turn right around and deny that God wanted adam to sin. They say that God would have preferred not that adam sinned, but because he did sin, God foresaw it, so then God purposed Christ as a sort of back up plan ! But what kinda nonsense is that ? Thats actually contradicting and overturning the clear scripture teaching that that the Eternal Purpose was centered in Jesus Christ or its saying that Jesus Christ was secondary to Gods purpose of adam, which thinking is actually giving the purpose of adam the preeminence over the purpose of Christ, which undermines this:
Col 1:18

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Now certainly, if Jesus Christ was a back up plan for the failure of adam, then adam had the preeminence over Christ in Gods First Purpose..

This thinking is a total repudiation of the truth that all things [ Including adam] were created by and for Jesus Christ..

short answer: Yes.

 

[savedbymercy]

Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Rev 13:
8
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Eph 3:9-11

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Col 1:17-17

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

All such verses and passages as above, If understood properly, makes it abundantly clear, that the world, the universe was founded for mans existence to fulfill Gods Eternal Purpose centered in Christ Jesus !

 

[steaver]

God is NOT author of evil, but uses that Evil sometimes to accomplish his purposes?

So There HAD to be Evil devil and sin in His original pristine creation in order to bring His predestined plans come to pass?

What does this mean when one says God is not the Author of evil? Does this mean that evil is an eternal thing, always was, always has been? Where did evil come from, who created it?