God allows but does not author evil

[Van]

If you "choose" from only one possibility, the banana, then the "choice" was predestined. You could not have chosen the apple because then God's knowledge would be in error. To choose means to can choose between two or more alternate outcomes. If only one outcome is possible, that choice is a non-choice, a predestined choice and you could not choose the other option.

Yes, but every choice is intentional (it has a why); otherwise, it is random (or made out of insanity). If there is a why to a choice, then that why CANNOT be the rationale for another choice. Such would violate the law of non-contradiction.

It is possible (and I say necessary) to believe that God has infallible, exhaustive knowledge of all future events and that man makes choices "freely" (without coercion--against his will). Even Arminians (or other synergists who believe in EDF) actually are compatibilists because they believe that all things are "determined" by what God knows, yet choices are not coerced (although they try to avoid admitting it).


Now, as far as the open theist contention that their position solves the problem of God being "complicit" in the evil actions of man, their solution is no solution at all. In fact, all it does is push the problem a bit. For example, an open theist would say that God cannot know that a specific murderer will fire a bullet at a victim in the future, because He would be complicit in the act. However, is God faster than a bullet? Can God see the trigger being pulled? Is it possible for Him to deflect or stop a bullet coming out of the barrel? If so, why didn't He prevent it from happening? Wouldn't that make Him complicit in the action because He could have prevented it but didn't? Simply removing a period of time from God's knowledge does not free Him from being "complicit" in the action one bit.

The open theist answer is that God is more concerned with the libertarian free will of man than He is that evil occurs. The "greater good" requires that God "risk" the "divine project." In other words, God cares more about the free will of the evil murder than He does about the violated free will of the victim. What about Hitler? Well, the open theist will argue that "God didn't know" that such tragic events would happen, and that He would be complicit in the actions if He knew them ahead of time and did not prevent them. Well, God obviously observed Hitler's reign of terror for five years and was "complicit" in the death of 6 million Jews and did "nothing" to stop it. The problem has not been solved! So, He was really hoping that Hitler would exercise his free will and repent. He sacrificed the lives of millions of other people (many of which also needed the same repentance) because He wanted Hitler to repent more so than the others. Open theism results in God placing more value on the most evil people than on everyone else. It does not solve the "problem of evil" one iota. The fact that all kinds of purposeless evil can happen that is outside God's knowledge or eternal decree is a breathtakingly horrifying concept!

The only way to believe in the God of the Bible and to "solve" the "problem of evil" is to embrace it. We have to accept that all the evil that happens in the world ultimately finds its origin in the eternal decree and purpose of God. No finite human can understand how this can work. It is a mystery, but it is a logical and Scriptural necessity.

Hello Aresman, I have addressed all these bogus points before. Please address my views on your points or discussion seems pointless.

1. Every choice is intentional. Yes, and we always choose what we desire at that moment in time, except for when we make mistaken choices like reaching to catch the ball, but missing it, was not a choice driven by desire, but by frailty.
2. Every choice is not a non-choice because we can alter our desire at any point in time, whether the greater evil or the greater good.
3. It is not necessary that God knows the future exhaustive, only that God has the capacity to know the future exhaustive. The Bible teaches that God has the capacity to choose not to know the future exhaustively. So if the Bible is our only authority, and not the doctrines of men, or the traditional views of men, then it is necessary God has the power to choose whatever pleases Him, which could be to remember no more, or test people to find out what their heart desires. (Not saying that is what God chose to do, because that would be unorthodox, but simply saying God has that capacity because all things are possible with God.)
4. It does not matter whether some Arminians are compatibilist, but as an observation I agree some Arminians think it is possible for God to know something beforehand, yet we make that choice, it is as if God only knew what we freely chose.
5. Next, you introduce the Theodicy issue, which I have also addressed many times in the past. God allows men to do evil because that is according to His purpose of creation. This does not make Him the author of that evil. OTOH, the calamity that God does cause, and we, i.e. those affected adversely, would call the calamity evil, does not make God’s actual calamity evil because in His eyes, the calamity is necessary for His purpose.
6. Yes God could have chosen not to create the capacity to choose evil in man, but that would not have fulfilled the purpose of God creating man. And He could have chosen not to allow the adverse consequences of evil choices, but again He did. We are not in a position to judge the decisions God makes according to His purpose, only to accept that if we understand His revealed decisions, they are perfect and just and never evil in His eyes.
7. Yes, we walk in the purview God allows us to walk, we make plans but God directs our feet. He can harden our hearts and remove our ability to choose to trust in Christ, but He also allows us, with our heart unhardened by the practice of sin or His intervention to trust in Christ.
8. No one is arguing in favor of Open Theism, but that everything is not predestined which is open theism to a limited degree. Try to stay focused on the actual issue.
9. The Theodice problem is not a mystery, the Bible explains it, but it is off topic, addressing what you think is the motive of explaining why God allows the evil consequences of mankind’s evil choices. But the motive for saying everything is not predestined is to make comprehensible the punishment God gives those who choose to sin.
In summary, the motive for saying everything is not predestined is because that is my understanding of scripture, i.e. Jesus says things happen by chance. The rebuttal to nullify this scripture is that since God knows the future exhaustively everything is predestined, which puts a manmade doctrine, not supported by scripture, above scripture. As a Baptist who believes in scripture alone, I reject that argument.

 

[Van]

You now seem to be speaking your own logical impossibilities, which, as far as I can tell, go like this:
-If God knows all the future, then everything is predestined, which makes God the author of evil (you reject this idea)
-So..God chooses not to know all the future (this is supposed to solve the dilema)
-Yet God "knew Adam would Fall", "God's plan included the fall." ...
-Yet he "did not predestine the outcome by looking into Adams heart and creating a circumstance that He knew would result in sin."
-You further muddy the waters by saying that some sins God does predestine, and yet they are not considered sins that we will have to answer for, like Peter's denial:

God knew that Peter would deny Jesus, so He knew beforehand, and Peter's denial was predestined. I do not think Peter's sinful act had penalty attached, because a predestined action would be forgiven, it seems to me. So the fact that people are punished for their deeds, means that all sins are not predestined and therefore penalty attaches. Unless of course God forgives them and remembers them, at least the penalty of them, no more forever

I hope you can see how the things you are saying seem to not fit together. You are saying God is not the author of evil, BUT, he did know about and even plan for the fall, and Peter's sin, but some sins that God did predestine will not be punished because God predestined those...But he is not the author of evil.

Yes, if God predestines our sins, then He is the author of those sins.

Yes God desired that Adam sin because He arranged the circumstances that would test Adam and provide the opportunity for Adam to choose to sin. But He did not predestine by any means Adam’s sin, Adam made the choice to sin and could have chosen, at that time, to not sin and reject the offered fruit of the forbidden tree.

I did not muddy the waters, I addressed my view of the scriptural account of Peter’s denial, where the circumstances were not the same. In both cases my view is consistent with all scripture.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Foreknowledge does not equal predestination. It's self contradictory, for since God knows every possible outcome of everything that never comes to pass, the fact that those things never come to pass proves that he did not predestined those things that he foreknew but foreknew would not come to pass.

 

[Van]

If you "choose" from only one possibility, the banana, then the "choice" was predestined. You could not have chosen the apple because then God's knowledge would be in error. To choose means to can choose between two or more alternate outcomes. If only one outcome is possible, that choice is a non-choice, a predestined choice and you could not choose the other option.

No Van, that is not how it works. If Willis chooses the apple two weeks from now, that is what God knows. If Willis chooses the banana two weeks from now, THAT is what God knows. God knows what will certainly take place, but he does not determine whether Willis will choose the apple or banana. Willis chooses of his own free volition, God simply knows that choice in advance.

I have given the analogy of sports. If I could predict each college basketball game this weekend, who will win, and who will lose, and predict the exact score, that would be a fantastic feat would it not?

But what if all the games are fixed? What if I bribed the teams, coaches, referees, etc... so that the games came out exactly as I predicted. Would that be special? No, that would be a fix. It would be cheating, it is nothing to boast about. Even man can do this, in fact there are cases of games being fixed like this.

Prophecy or foreknowledge is no big deal if everything is fixed, even man can accurately predict what he has determined or fixed, nothing supernatural about this at all. I can predict I will have tuna for lunch tomorrow, big deal, I can determine right now to do that.

Folks simply can't grasp that God can know free will decisions before they occur, but he can. This is REAL power. What you other fellas believe in is not power at all, even men can do this

No Winman, your claim is incomprehensible. First you invent a divine crystal ball, sorcery, which is a forbidden sin. You say God can look into the future, before it happens and know what will happen. But if the future exists in the metaphysical realm of your imagination, then whatever is that future is fixed, i.e. bananas with no chance at apples.

Next, you do not seem to realize that Prophecy is fixed. God says what will happen in the future, like the Angels will win the World Series, and then He takes whatever action is necessary to bring that outcome about. Totally different than your imagined view of Prophecy. You need to study it and see if you can find in scripture where God explains how He “fulfills” His prophecies. It is all there and it is crystal but no ball is mentioned or suggested. J

God gave us His Word, and authenticated it will miracles, like Jesus rising from the dead, and that is real power. But when men make up powers and give them to God, they deny His Word.

 

[Van]

Reply to Fiction

Foreknowledge does not equal predestination. It's self contradictory, for since God knows every possible outcome of everything that never comes to pass, the fact that those things never come to pass proves that he did not predestined those things that he foreknew but foreknew would not come to pass.

Your assertion Sir is long on imagination and short of supporting scripture.

God does know what existing people would choose to do given a circumstance, i.e. Peter's denial or stretching out his hands to go where he does not want to go, or that townspeople, had they seen Christ's miracles, would have repented.

I see no need to extrapolate that to everything the minds of men can invent.

And as far as logic is concerned, you do realize that if God knows something will happen it will because that is predestined, and if He knows something will not happen, it will not happen because that too is predestined.

 

[jonathan.borland]

No, God foreknew all the blessings that the Israelites would have gotten if they had obeyed (cf Deut), otherwise he flat out fibbed!

 

[jbh28]

I thought the false view of God not knowing everything was not allowed in the baptist section.

God knows everything. End of story.

 

[jonathan.borland]

I thought the false view of God not knowing everything was not allowed in the baptist section.

God knows everything. End of story.

Amen, brother! He even knows every thing that could happen but won't. Now that is exhaustive knowledge!

 

[psalms109:31]

I want to ask a question?

There is one who is a strong believer at this time and there was a guy who drove drunk and hit the strong believer and killed the strong believers family.

It was predestined for that action that person was an alcoholic it was bound to happen eventually and there was nothing that man who was a strong believer to change the stripes on that drunk driver. Who could of never knew it was coming.

The strong believer turned away from God and died hating God and the alcoholic turned to God, sobered up and became a strong evangelist.

The once strong believer was it predestined for him to turn away from God?

 

[jonathan.borland]

One son said I go, father, but didn't. The other said, I won't, father, but later did. Which was the truly obedient (saved)?

 

[jonathan.borland]

Some are in the church but don't have wedding garments, so to speak.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I want to ask a question?

There is one who is a strong believer at this time and there was a guy who drove drunk and hit the strong believer and killed the strong believers family.

It was predestined for that action that person was an alcoholic it was bound to happen eventually and there was nothing that man who was a strong believer to change the stripes on that drunk driver. Who could of never knew it was coming.

The strong believer turned away from God and died hating God and the alcoholic became sober and turned to God and became a strong evangelist.

The once strong believer was it predestined for him to turn away from God?

NO & again you have the wrong understanding of predestination.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

One son said I go, father, but didn't. The other said, I won't, father, but later did. Which was the truly obedient (saved)?

Thats another way of saying it....who then had the total & absolute belief in God? The answer is in "Does it bear fruit?" ....which is really another one I phased badly. LOL

 

[jonathan.borland]

Thats another way of saying it....who then had the total & absolute belief in God? The answer is in "Does it bear fruit?"

Right you are, brother!

 

[psalms109:31]

NO & again you have the wrong understanding of predestination.

I want to ask a question?

There is one who is a strong believer at this time and there was a guy who drove drunk and hit the strong believer and killed the strong believers family.

It was predestined for that action that person was an alcoholic it was bound to happen eventually and there was nothing that man who was a strong believer to change the stripes on that drunk driver. Who could of never knew it was coming.

The strong believer turned away from God and died hating God and the alcoholic turned to God, sobered up and became a strong evangelist.

The once strong believer was it predestined for him to turn away from God?

Was he really a strong believer or the seed wasn't really planted because he let trials and tribulations choke it out?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I want to ask a question?

There is one who is a strong believer at this time and there was a guy who drove drunk and hit the strong believer and killed the strong believers family.

It was predestined for that action that person was an alcoholic it was bound to happen eventually and there was nothing that man who was a strong believer to change the stripes on that drunk driver. Who could of never knew it was coming.

The strong believer turned away from God and died hating God and the alcoholic turned to God, sobered up and became a strong evangelist.

The once strong believer was it predestined for him to turn away from God?

Was he really a strong believer or the seed wasn't really planted because he let trials and tribulations choke it out?

May I venture to ask you what your exact definition of "Predestination" is?

 

[Van]

Reply to Lack of Logic

No, God foreknew all the blessings that the Israelites would have gotten if they had obeyed (cf Deut), otherwise he flat out fibbed!

God knowing what He plans to bring about does not suggest He does not plan to provide us with a purview in which to act autonomously.

 

[Van]

I thought the false view of God not knowing everything was not allowed in the baptist section.

God knows everything. End of story.

Everything is not predestined and God is not the author of sin. It is not orthodox to say God predestines sin, but that is somehow allowed. Find that in a Baptist creed!

 

[Van]

Hi Winman:

Read Isaiah 44:24-28. In verse 26, where God says He confirms the word of his servant, it means He brings about what His servant prophesies. Where it says He performs or fulfills the purpose of His messengers, it is saying God causes it to happen. God prophesies that the cities of Judea will be built, and then it says that God will raise them up, again fulfilling prophecy by intervention to bring it about.

The word fulfill means to repay, the idea is that when God purposes or says something an obligation is created which is repaid when God brings it about. He fulfills prophecy.

 

[Van]

Yes, Psalm 109:31, according to Calvinism, everything is predestined, the strong believer, the crash that takes his family, the drunk driver, the eventual salvation of the one and the eternal damnation of the other, life is simply on rails, and we can alter nothing, everyone is predestined to heaven or hell and nothing, not praying for loved ones, teaching our children, dying as a missionary will alter one person's afterlife. This is the gospel according to Calvinism and it is false doctrine according to scripture.