God allows but does not author evil

[Skandelon]

Yes, God could have decided not to create us based on his perfect foreknowledge of what would happen and then sin never would have entered the universe that was never created. Which is better? I kind of prefer the option to create anyway!

The billions burning for eternity in hell might disagree. :tear:

 

[mont974x4]

Isa 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
Isa 45:6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other,
Isa 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
Isa 45:8 "Drip down, O heavens, from above, And let the clouds pour down righteousness; Let the earth open up and salvation bear fruit, And righteousness spring up with it. I, the LORD, have created it.
Isa 45:9 "Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands'?


In Job chapter 1 he has lost his children, his servants, and his livestock. His response is found in verses 20-22.
Job 1:20 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshiped.
Job 1:21 He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."
Job 1:22 Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.

In chapter 2 Job himself is struck with severe boils.

Job 2:9 Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die!"
Job 2:10 But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.


I know many will say, "but God only allowed Satan to attack Job". The reality is God is God and Satan is as powerless apart from God's will as we are.

 

[Amy.G]

The billions burning for eternity in hell might disagree. :tear:

Do you think God didn't know people would end up in hell when He created mankind?

 

[Skandelon]

Do you think God didn't know people would end up in hell when He created mankind?

Did I say that? I just said that those who end up in hell would disagree with that statement. Wouldn't you?

 

[Skandelon]

Amy, I just find the biblical teaching of an eternal hell much easier to accept when accompanied by the biblical teaching that those who go there do so DESPITE God's choice, not because of it.

 

[Winman]

The billions burning for eternity in hell might disagree. :tear:

I agree with Jonathan, would you choose not to exist? I don't know about you, but I am glad I exist.

Of course, if you did not exist you would not be aware of it.

I believe God made us so he would have someone to love, just as we all have a natural desire to have children that we can love. In fact, I would say we got this desire from God.

But love requires choice. It is absolutely impossible to force someone to love you, it cannot be done. Therefore man must be given free will to either choose for God or not. In fact, it would be criminal IMHO to create people who did not have free will. You could not be forced to love God, and if you were you would resent God.

So, folks have the choice to choose for God or not. It is crazy not to choose for God, but folks do a lot of crazy things for whatever reason they decide. It is impossible for a person who does choose for God to understand someone who rejects him. All you can do is ask the person why they reject God and they will tell you.

From my experience, it is because people are deceived and believe certain lies that they reject God. Most athiests will tell you they refuse to believe in God because they reject the idea that God would cause so much pain and suffering in the world, or they cannot believe in a God who would send folks to hell.

Both of these reasons are lies. God did not cause suffering to enter the world, Satan and man did, when Satan tempted man, and man believed Satan and introduced sin and disorder into the world.

And God does not desire to send any to hell, though God must separate sin from himself. God has gone so far as to give his Son to die for us to save us from our sin, so God does not desire any to go to hell.

And I think the reason many folks reject God is because they love their sin and want to continue in it. It is foolish, but that is their choice. Folks do lots of stupid things. Everyone knows that taking heroin is stupid, yet folks choose to do so anyway, because they love the pleasure of drugs. They know quite well it can become an addiction, but they choose to do it anyway.

So, the primary reason folks reject God is because they have believed some lie from the devil, there are hundreds of lies the devil uses to deceive folks. God has revealed the truth to men, so they are without excuse, but men choose to believe the devil because they WANT to.

 

[Forest]

Hello Aresman, I have addressed all these bogus points before. Please address my views on your points or discussion seems pointless.

1. Every choice is intentional. Yes, and we always choose what we desire at that moment in time, except for when we make mistaken choices like reaching to catch the ball, but missing it, was not a choice driven by desire, but by frailty.
2. Every choice is not a non-choice because we can alter our desire at any point in time, whether the greater evil or the greater good.
3. It is not necessary that God knows the future exhaustive, only that God has the capacity to know the future exhaustive. The Bible teaches that God has the capacity to choose not to know the future exhaustively. So if the Bible is our only authority, and not the doctrines of men, or the traditional views of men, then it is necessary God has the power to choose whatever pleases Him, which could be to remember no more, or test people to find out what their heart desires. (Not saying that is what God chose to do, because that would be unorthodox, but simply saying God has that capacity because all things are possible with God.)
4. It does not matter whether some Arminians are compatibilist, but as an observation I agree some Arminians think it is possible for God to know something beforehand, yet we make that choice, it is as if God only knew what we freely chose.
5. Next, you introduce the Theodicy issue, which I have also addressed many times in the past. God allows men to do evil because that is according to His purpose of creation. This does not make Him the author of that evil. OTOH, the calamity that God does cause, and we, i.e. those affected adversely, would call the calamity evil, does not make God’s actual calamity evil because in His eyes, the calamity is necessary for His purpose.
6. Yes God could have chosen not to create the capacity to choose evil in man, but that would not have fulfilled the purpose of God creating man. And He could have chosen not to allow the adverse consequences of evil choices, but again He did. We are not in a position to judge the decisions God makes according to His purpose, only to accept that if we understand His revealed decisions, they are perfect and just and never evil in His eyes.
7. Yes, we walk in the purview God allows us to walk, we make plans but God directs our feet. He can harden our hearts and remove our ability to choose to trust in Christ, but He also allows us, with our heart unhardened by the practice of sin or His intervention to trust in Christ.
8. No one is arguing in favor of Open Theism, but that everything is not predestined which is open theism to a limited degree. Try to stay focused on the actual issue.
9. The Theodice problem is not a mystery, the Bible explains it, but it is off topic, addressing what you think is the motive of explaining why God allows the evil consequences of mankind’s evil choices. But the motive for saying everything is not predestined is to make comprehensible the punishment God gives those who choose to sin.
In summary, the motive for saying everything is not predestined is because that is my understanding of scripture, i.e. Jesus says things happen by chance. The rebuttal to nullify this scripture is that since God knows the future exhaustively everything is predestined, which puts a manmade doctrine, not supported by scripture, above scripture. As a Baptist who believes in scripture alone, I reject that argument.

Isa 45:7, I form the light,and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

 

[Skandelon]

I agree with Jonathan, would you choose not to exist? I don't know about you, but I am glad I exist.

Oh, yes, I'm saved so of course I'm glad. But on the other hand, I feel as Paul did in that I might wished myself accursed for the sake of the masses who are going to hell. The idea saddens and troubles me deeply. As I said to Amy, I just find the biblical teaching of an eternal hell much easier to accept when accompanied by the biblical teaching that those who go there do so DESPITE God's choice, not because of it.

 

[convicted1]

I thought the false view of God not knowing everything was not allowed in the baptist section.

God knows everything. End of story.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

Isa 45:7, I form the light,and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

So you honestly believes that evil comes directly from God? WOW!!

 

[convicted1]

Isa 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
Isa 45:6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other,
Isa 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
Isa 45:8 "Drip down, O heavens, from above, And let the clouds pour down righteousness; Let the earth open up and salvation bear fruit, And righteousness spring up with it. I, the LORD, have created it.
Isa 45:9 "Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands'?


In Job chapter 1 he has lost his children, his servants, and his livestock. His response is found in verses 20-22.
Job 1:20 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshiped.
Job 1:21 He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."
Job 1:22 Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.

In chapter 2 Job himself is struck with severe boils.

Job 2:9 Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die!"
Job 2:10 But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.


I know many will say, "but God only allowed Satan to attack Job". The reality is God is God and Satan is as powerless apart from God's will as we are.

But remember, Satan told God, "If you let me at him, he'll curse you to your face"(paraphrasing this). God then told him what he could do, and couldn't do(take his life). God showed Satan that he didn't know as much as he thought he knew. In all of Job's tribulations, he wasn't foolish enough to blame God. God allowed Satan to do so much, but not everything satan wanted to do. If satan would have had his way, he would have annilhalated Job. However, God told him he couldn't kill Job.

 

[jonathan.borland]

The billions burning for eternity in hell might disagree. :tear:

That's a hard question. Jesus indicated that it would have been better never to have existed than to have existed and betrayed the Son of Man. "To be or not to be, that is the question." I'm glad God chose "to be" or else we wouldn't be having this conversation! Besides, he wants to save all men (2 Peter 3:9), but some are not willing (Luke 13:34).

 

[jonathan.borland]

Amy, I just find the biblical teaching of an eternal hell much easier to accept when accompanied by the biblical teaching that those who go there do so DESPITE God's choice, not because of it.

I agree, brother, except that it doesn't matter whether the concept of hell is easy or not to accept, except from an apologetic perspective.

 

[Van]

reply to Winman:

OK, you want an example of God knowing something that he did not will to come to pass. Judas.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus knew beforehand that Judas would betray him. Jesus even chose Judas because he knew he would betray him and fulfill prophecy. But that does not mean God caused Judas to betray Jesus, the scriptures say God never tempts any man to sin.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The scriptures say God does not tempt "any" man to sin, but all men sin when they are drawn away of their "own" lust. God did not put the thought in Judas's mind to betray Jesus.

But God knew Judas would betray Jesus didn't he? It cannot be denied.

There is no way around this, Judas made his own free will decision to betray Jesus, God did not cause this. But God knew beforehand that Judas would make this decision.

This may not fit with your view, but it is what the scriptures plainly say.

Deut 31:15 And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle.
16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
22 Moses therefore wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.

Here is another example of God's foreknowledge. He told Moses he knew Israel would go after other gods. He said he knows their imagination "even now" and "before" he brought them into the promised land.

Again, God does not tempt any man to sin, so this sin arose out of the hearts of the Jews themselves. Yet God knew what they would do beforehand.

So, if God did not tempt and cause the Jews to sin, and yet he knew before that they would, God can see and know the free will decisions of men before they actually take place.

We may not understand how God can foresee the free will decisions of men, but the scriptures show he can and does.

Hi Winman, first stop putting words in my mouth. I did not say that God does not know future events that He did not predestine. He knows what is in the hearts of those He interacts with and therefore knew from the beginning the lip service believers among them, John 6:64.

Ditto for Judas, John 6:70 And of course God did not put that thought in Judas, but God did know Judas's heart and picked him to become the betrayer, and in that way God fulfilled His prophecy.

No, Winman, the account from Deuteronomy 31:15-22 does not demonstrate God's looking into a crystal ball, but rather into the hearts and minds of those He delivered from slavery in Egypt. Again, He knew what they would do when the circumstance of living in the land of milk and honey occurred.

As I have stated over and over, Winman, God does know future actions of existing people given a circumstance because He knows their hearts. Thus Jesus said of the townspeople, had they seen His miracles, they would have repented.

Bottom line, each and every example you provided is consistent with what I said and therefore your post is simply a deflection. Now how does God fulfill prophecy. Please address this question.

That is the question I want answered!

 

[Van]

Reply to Misdirection

I agree Winman. It all goes back to one's view of foreknowledge, since foreknowledge is the basis of election according to Peter.

God does choose individuals during their lifetime according to His predetermined plan of redemption, and therefore according to His foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge as used in the Bible refers to having knowledge from the past and using it in the present. So when God does something according to His predetermined plan it is according to His foreknowledge.

 

[Winman]

Hi Winman, first stop putting words in my mouth. I did not say that God does not know future events that He did not predestine. He knows what is in the hearts of those He interacts with and therefore knew from the beginning the lip service believers among them, John 6:64.

Ditto for Judas, John 6:70 And of course God did not put that thought in Judas, but God did know Judas's heart and picked him to become the betrayer, and in that way God fulfilled His prophecy.

No, Winman, the account from Deuteronomy 31:15-22 does not demonstrate God's looking into a crystal ball, but rather into the hearts and minds of those He delivered from slavery in Egypt. Again, He knew what they would do when the circumstance of living in the land of milk and honey occurred.

As I have stated over and over, Winman, God does know future actions of existing people given a circumstance because He knows their hearts. Thus Jesus said of the townspeople, had they seen His miracles, they would have repented.

Bottom line, each and every example you provided is consistent with what I said and therefore your post is simply a deflection. Now how does God fulfill prophecy. Please address this question.

That is the question I want answered!

I think I have answered that. God knew exactly what Judas would do. He knew Judas would betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

And I do not appreciate you saying that God looks into a crystal ball. The scriptures say God has foreknowledge.

Jhn 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

Just because God can see and know the future does not mean it was determined. It CAN mean it was determined and I am sure it often was. But it can also mean that God can see the free will decisions of men. God could not have caused Judas to betray Jesus because the scriptures say God does not tempt any man.

Jesus chose Judas because he knew he would betray him and fulfill prophecy. God knew exactly what actions Judas would take. If Judas had betrayed Jesus for fifty pieces of silver, then that is what the prophecy would have said. Judas betrayed Jesus for thirty pieces of silver, so that is what God said would occur.

Folks are trying to put God in a box. Just because we cannot know the future does not mean God cannot. This is REAL power. Anybody can predict what they have determined, nothing supernatural or powerful about that. I can predict I will have tuna for lunch today. I can make sure that is what I eat for lunch. Big deal.

 

[Van]

Off Topic Comment.

Some are indicating Hell is a bad thing, and it might have been better had God not created mankind. Pure twaddle.

Everyone that goes to Hell (actually Hades and Gehenna for those who actually read the Bible) deserves the perfect justice they will receive. We are to love justice, not avoid it.

 

[Skandelon]

Some are indicating Hell is a bad thing

That may depend on what you mean by 'bad' but the reality of Hell is an AWFUL truth that should cause us all to grieve. I don't believe anyone here is attempting to say that hell is not real, if that is what you mean.

We are to love justice, not avoid it.

False dichotomy. It's not about 'avoiding' it. Its about realizing and acknowledging the awful reality of it.

"I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race." - Paul

Should we dismiss Paul's sorrow and anguish as being his attempt to avoid justice? Should he have expressed more love for the justice by which his fellow countrymen will perish instead of for them as people?

 

[Van]

Hi Winman, stop deflecting. First, God prophecied that Jesus would have a betrayer. Then God picked a person, with a heart that would betray Jesus. And then God made sure His prophecy would be fulfilled by allowing Satan to enter. What part of that do you not understand!!!!!

God never tempts, i.e. tries to lead astray, anyone. But people who have gone astray, are hardened such that they stay astray, like the people of Romans 11, or Judas.

Do you not know that your view of God's foreknowledge is looking into a crystall ball. You cannot "foresee" the future unless you look at that future. But that is not at all what the Bible says God does, so I do not appreciate you proclaiming He does.

So yet again you have deflected and not answered the question, from scripture, how does God fulfill prophecy. Does he simply allow some future foreseen thing to happen, or does He cause what He says will happen to happen. Two very different views. Answer the question!

Your view is unstudied, and I have even given you one reference from Isaiah. There are several more which teach the same thing.

 

[Van]

More of the same

That may depend on what you mean by 'bad' but the reality of Hell is an AWFUL truth that should cause us all to grieve. I don't believe anyone here is attempting to say that hell is not real, if that is what you mean.

False dichotomy. It's not about 'avoiding' it. Its about realizing and acknowledging the awful reality of it.

"I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race." - Paul

Should we dismiss Paul's sorrow and anguish as being his attempt to avoid justice? Should he have expressed more love for the justice by which his fellow countrymen will perish instead of for them as people?

1. It would depend on what those who indicated God's decision to create people who would end up in Hell was a bad thing.

2. To suggest that I am saying hell is not real demonstrates your commitment to truth. I said Hell is where God provides perfect justice for sinners. Therefore Hell (actually Hades and Gehenna for those who read the Bible) is very real and is a place of torment as punishment for sin.

3. No, I was not the one suggesting maybe it would have been better not to create people who could end up in Hell; does "That's a hard question. Jesus indicated that it would have been better never to have existed than to have existed and betrayed the Son of Man." ring a bell.

4. Now, Skandelon, we come to the actual false choice, of saying we should not be worried sick over the lost because they will receive perfect justice. We should be worried sick because we can do something about it, we can be ambassadors of Christ, and provide the gospel, with its truth that those who do not obtain mercy through Jesus, face eternal punishment in Hades, then Gehenna.