God allows but does not author evil

[psalms109:31]

James 5:
17 Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18 Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.

19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Colossians 1:
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[Or minds, as shown by] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

James 1:
Trials and Temptations
2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,[The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family; also in verses 16 and 19; and in 2:1, 5, 14; 3:10, 12; 4:11; 5:7, 9, 10, 12, 19.] whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

1 Thessalonians 3

1 So when we could stand it no longer, we thought it best to be left by ourselves in Athens. 2 We sent Timothy, who is our brother and co-worker in God’s service in spreading the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith, 3 so that no one would be unsettled by these trials. For you know quite well that we are destined for them. 4 In fact, when we were with you, we kept telling you that we would be persecuted. And it turned out that way, as you well know. 5 For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter had tempted you and that our labors might have been in vain.
Timothy’s Encouraging Report
6 But Timothy has just now come to us from you and has brought good news about your faith and love. He has told us that you always have pleasant memories of us and that you long to see us, just as we also long to see you. 7 Therefore, brothers and sisters, in all our distress and persecution we were encouraged about you because of your faith. 8 For now we really live, since you are standing firm in the Lord. 9 How can we thank God enough for you in return for all the joy we have in the presence of our God because of you? 10 Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you again and supply what is lacking in your faith.


Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Hebrews 3 :
Warning Against Unbelief
7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”[Psalm 95:7-11]

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

No matter what goes around us predestined by God it is never to bring a believer to unbelief, but to continue to trust in Him no matter what happens around us, we are called to encourage belief in God not unbelief even to those who are predestined to hell.

I believe I am predestined to be saved in Christ not apart from Him, I can not be saved on my own from condemnation.

 

[jonathan.borland]

God knowing what He plans to bring about does not suggest He does not plan to provide us with a purview in which to act autonomously.

I agree. So why are you writing this to me?

 

[jonathan.borland]

Hey Psalms,
God predestined you to good works because he elected you based on his perfect foreknowledge of your response to his suasory working of grace in your life.

 

[DaChaser1]

Your assertion Sir is long on imagination and short of supporting scripture.

God does know what existing people would choose to do given a circumstance, i.e. Peter's denial or stretching out his hands to go where he does not want to go, or that townspeople, had they seen Christ's miracles, would have repented.

I see no need to extrapolate that to everything the minds of men can invent.

And as far as logic is concerned, you do realize that if God knows something will happen it will because that is predestined, and if He knows something will not happen, it will not happen because that too is predestined.

the future is already 'fixed' by God , in the sense that ALL things that can be done in the Future He already knows of them!

He either determines the events by direct cause, or else allowed for others to "freely decide", but he already know what will happen, as history is already fully done deal to Him!

 

[psalms109:31]

Hey Psalms,
God predestined you to good works because he elected you based on his perfect foreknowledge of your response to his suasory working of grace in your life.

We are differently called to rest in Him and let Him work in our new life.

Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

 

[DaChaser1]

Yes, Psalm 109:31, according to Calvinism, everything is predestined, the strong believer, the crash that takes his family, the drunk driver, the eventual salvation of the one and the eternal damnation of the other, life is simply on rails, and we can alter nothing, everyone is predestined to heaven or hell and nothing, not praying for loved ones, teaching our children, dying as a missionary will alter one person's afterlife. This is the gospel according to Calvinism and it is false doctrine according to scripture.

does God cause the train to smash, Jets fall out of the sky?

or is it, HINT, happen because we are still living on a World run under satanic system, under the bondage and curse of Sin?

God KNOWS what will happen, some of that because he directly caused it, others that He saw the event and chose to have it happen...

You sound like an Apostle of the rabbi that wrote 'Why bad things happen to good people"

His rationale was either God loves us, but is limited, or else God was all, yet was evil at times!

 

[Van]

Why make assertions without support.

the future is already 'fixed' by God , in the sense that ALL things that can be done in the Future He already knows of them!

He either determines the events by direct cause, or else allowed for others to "freely decide", but he already know what will happen, as history is already fully done deal to Him!

This is supposed to be a bible study forum where views are supported and contradicted with specific scriptural references.

As far as logic, if my choice is predestined then it is not freely decided, I must choose what God knows I will choose.

It does not matter how many different ways Calvinism puts forth incomprehensible doctrine, they are all unbiblical, John 3:11. If your doctrine would not make sense to a child, it is not the gospel.

 

[Van]

More denial of scripture

does God cause the train to smash, Jets fall out of the sky?

God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

or is it, HINT, happen because we are still living on a World run under satanic system, under the bondage and curse of Sin?

God allows the corrupt world,ruled by Satan,to exist in order to fulfill His purpose of choosing a people for His own possession.

His rationale was either God loves us, but is limited, or else God was all, yet was evil at times!

Why put these false words in my mouth? Can you not stick with the truth. I have explained why bad things happen to good people probably more than a dozen times. Can you not read?

 

[Van]

No matter what goes around us predestined by God it is never to bring a believer to unbelief, but to continue to trust in Him no matter what happens around us, we are called to encourage belief in God not unbelief even to those who are predestined to hell.

I believe I am predestined to be saved in Christ not apart from Him, I can not be saved on my own from condemnation.

1. Yes, God tests us, but does not tempt us.

2. We are called to be ambassadors of Christ by (1) presenting the gospel to the lost and (2) building up the body such that our ministry grows stronger.

3. No one is predestined to salvation, we are all conceived in iniquity, separated from God and on a path that leads to justice and punishment in the afterlife.But by God's grace, some of us hear and learn from the Father, and these He gives to the Son, and all those given in that manner are saved forever, and cannot lose their salvation, for eternal life is reserved in heaven for them. But once spiritually placed in Christ, where we are born again as children of God, then we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and be resurrected in bodily form at His second coming.

 

[DaChaser1]

God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

God allows the corrupt world,ruled by Satan,to exist in order to fulfill His purpose of choosing a people for His own possession.

Why put these false words in my mouth? Can you not stick with the truth. I have explained why bad things happen to good people probably more than a dozen times. Can you not read?

So God stays in control regardless of what happens, and always knows before hand what will happen?

 

[Van]

The theodicy problem

If the evil in the world is intended by God he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good.

I think David Hume is credited with initially formulating this paradox. But in actuality, this formulation was created by a pagan in an effort to refute the false gods of paganism. Hume may be the first to plagiarize it and attempt to apply it to the God of the Bible.

I think theo (God) dice (justice) refers to a good and almighty God allowing pain, suffering and death to exist.

In discussing this issue we first must confront the concept of evil. I could define evil as things that goes against my interests, but that would be logically invalid for the problem as framed above. But defining evil as things that go against the interests of God would fit logically into the problem as framed; so for the purpose of this discussion, evil will be so defined.

So the pain, suffering and death in our world that is consistent with the interests of God are not evil, even though some may consider them evil. To debate this point is a red herring because only the accepted definition establishes the problem as stated.
Therefore, the actual evil in the world is the creation of other free-will entities, such as fallen angels and fallen mankind. God is ultimately responsible because he created the capacity for evil; but because His actions are consistent with His purposes, they are not evil.

Now lets turn our attention to the concept of goodness. Something that meets a need is good, something that falls short or is unusable is not good. Goodness must be defined in relation to mankind, but the problem arises in that what might be good for me might not be good for you. The concept that God is good does not require that all the actions of God are good for all people. Also, something might be good for me in the long term, but I would not recognize the need being met in the short term. So the pain, suffering and death in the world that is consistent with God’s purpose might not be seen as good for me during my lifetime, but in fact might be good for me or others long term. Clearly, those harmed by God to further His purpose would have a difficult time recognizing the goodness of their sacrifice! And again, to question the existence of the afterlife is a red herring, because the theodicy problem turns on the ultimate justice of God.

So now lets turn to the crux of the problem. Evil, contrary to the will of God exists, and our all-powerful God allows it to exist. Therefore it appears that either God is not good or not almighty. But wait, there is more.

The purpose of the creation of mankind is the glorify God. In order for some of mankind to glorify God, we must choose to love and obey, to turn and to trust our savior and lord, Jesus Christ. Why would we choose God, rather than self love, if there was no pain, suffering and death in this life, and no potential to attain justice and peace in the next? Just as the law is a tutor to lead us to knowledge of the wrongness of our choices, our harsh environment is a tutor to lead us to knowledge of the consequences of our wrong choices. When God told Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, he said the consequence would be death. So the creation of the capacity to love God, or other stuff fulfills the purpose of creation. And with this capacity to be an evil-doer, to love other stuff, comes a price. In order for our logically consistent and all-powerful God to create mankind with the capacity to choose to glorify God, He must allow us to make our choices and live with both the short term and long term consequences. The outcome of our choices is not always good, but without that reality, we would not exist at all.

Conclusion of the Matter: The Theodicy problem is a non-problem, God is good but we are not, and some of His actions are good for His purposes, but result in adverse affects upon us, which we might call evil. God is all-powerful but is staying His hand so that some may choose to glorify God.

 

[Van]

Pitchback

So God stays in control regardless of what happens, and always knows before hand what will happen?

So why not address my post? Can you not address what I said.

 

[DaChaser1]

So why not address my post? Can you not address what I said.

would you say that there HAD to be the fall of BOTh Satan/Adam per the Will of God to have happened?

 

[Winman]

No Winman, your claim is incomprehensible. First you invent a divine crystal ball, sorcery, which is a forbidden sin. You say God can look into the future, before it happens and know what will happen. But if the future exists in the metaphysical realm of your imagination, then whatever is that future is fixed, i.e. bananas with no chance at apples.

Next, you do not seem to realize that Prophecy is fixed. God says what will happen in the future, like the Angels will win the World Series, and then He takes whatever action is necessary to bring that outcome about. Totally different than your imagined view of Prophecy. You need to study it and see if you can find in scripture where God explains how He “fulfills” His prophecies. It is all there and it is crystal but no ball is mentioned or suggested. J

God gave us His Word, and authenticated it will miracles, like Jesus rising from the dead, and that is real power. But when men make up powers and give them to God, they deny His Word.

OK, you want an example of God knowing something that he did not will to come to pass. Judas.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus knew beforehand that Judas would betray him. Jesus even chose Judas because he knew he would betray him and fulfill prophecy. But that does not mean God caused Judas to betray Jesus, the scriptures say God never tempts any man to sin.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The scriptures say God does not tempt "any" man to sin, but all men sin when they are drawn away of their "own" lust. God did not put the thought in Judas's mind to betray Jesus.

But God knew Judas would betray Jesus didn't he? It cannot be denied.

There is no way around this, Judas made his own free will decision to betray Jesus, God did not cause this. But God knew beforehand that Judas would make this decision.

This may not fit with your view, but it is what the scriptures plainly say.

Deut 31:15 And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle.
16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
22 Moses therefore wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.

Here is another example of God's foreknowledge. He told Moses he knew Israel would go after other gods. He said he knows their imagination "even now" and "before" he brought them into the promised land.

Again, God does not tempt any man to sin, so this sin arose out of the hearts of the Jews themselves. Yet God knew what they would do beforehand.

So, if God did not tempt and cause the Jews to sin, and yet he knew before that they would, God can see and know the free will decisions of men before they actually take place.

We may not understand how God can foresee the free will decisions of men, but the scriptures show he can and does.

 

[Amy.G]

OK, you want an example of God knowing something that he did not will to come to pass. Judas.


Jesus knew beforehand that Judas would betray him. Jesus even chose Judas because he knew he would betray him and fulfill prophecy. But that does not mean God caused Judas to betray Jesus, the scriptures say God never tempts any man to sin.



There is no way around this, Judas made his own free will decision to betray Jesus, God did not cause this. But God knew beforehand that Judas would make this decision

Well yes and no. It was partly Judas' decision to betray Him, but it was also God's plan and could not be stopped.

Here's what I mean. In Luke 22:31 Satan wants Simon, but Jesus won't allow Satan to have him.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.


Satan also desired to have Judas.

John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

This time, Jesus allowed Satan to have what he wanted. Satan is still under the authority of God, and can only do what God allows. So once the devil entered Judas, he was not under his own power anymore. He was under Satan's power which God ordained.

 

[preacher4truth]

Well yes and no. It was partly Judas' decision to betray Him, but it was also God's plan and could not be stopped.

Here's what I mean. In Luke 22:31 Satan wants Simon, but Jesus won't allow Satan to have him.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.


Satan also desired to have Judas.

John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

This time, Jesus allowed Satan to have what he wanted. Satan is still under the authority of God, and can only do what God allows. So once the devil entered Judas, he was not under his own power anymore. He was under Satan's power which God ordained.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[jbh28]

Well yes and no. It was partly Judas' decision to betray Him, but it was also God's plan and could not be stopped.

Here's what I mean. In Luke 22:31 Satan wants Simon, but Jesus won't allow Satan to have him.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.


Satan also desired to have Judas.

John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

This time, Jesus allowed Satan to have what he wanted. Satan is still under the authority of God, and can only do what God allows. So once the devil entered Judas, he was not under his own power anymore. He was under Satan's power which God ordained.

Well stated Amy G!!!

 

[jonathan.borland]

Yes, God could have decided not to create us based on his perfect foreknowledge of what would happen and then sin never would have entered the universe that was never created. Which is better? I kind of prefer the option to create anyway!

 

[jonathan.borland]

I agree Winman. It all goes back to one's view of foreknowledge, since foreknowledge is the basis of election according to Peter.

 

[Greektim]

I agree Winman. It all goes back to one's view of foreknowledge, since foreknowledge is the basis of election according to Peter.

Interesting that grammatically that is not necessarily so based from 1 Pet 1:1-2. I think John of Japan's son is pointing out something like this in his upcoming dissertation. For example, what exactly is κατα προγνωσιν? Is it "elect" or "exiles" or perhaps "dispersion" (a closer antecedent). Something to consider. I'd love to hear JoJ's take from what he has learned from his son's research.