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God allows but does not author evil
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
If our choice is what is foreknown, then God's foreknowledge of it does not necessarily predestine it. God is not so weak as to have to make people do exactly what he wants in order to know what they will do. That's absurd and minimizes God.
I agree. Good point.
I never stated that by my knowing what you chose,i.e. the Chevy, was predestined by me. I just knew that was what you would choose. I just knew that you were going to choose the Chevy, but not influence you in a way that you had no other choice than to choose the Chevy. Your choice is your choice, I just simply knew what you would choose.
He doesn't get it Willis.
Pitchback;
What part of: If your knowledge was perfect and you could not be mistaken, then whether or not you intervened, I would still have to do as your foreknowledge said because you are perfect." did you not read!!!!!
I never stated that by my knowing what you chose,i.e. the Chevy, was predestined by me. I just knew that was what you would choose. I just knew that you were going to choose the Chevy, but not influence you in a way that you had no other choice than to choose the Chevy. Your choice is your choice, I just simply knew what you would choose.
What part of: If your knowledge was perfect and you could not be mistaken, then whether or not you intervened, I would still have to do as your foreknowledge said because you are perfect." did you not read!!!!!
convicted1
Guest
What part of: If your knowledge was perfect and you could not be mistaken, then whether or not you intervened, I would still have to do as your foreknowledge said because you are perfect." did you not read!!!!!
What's with all the (!!!!)? Relax Brother. God's foreknowledge does not automatically default to determinism. God knew that Lucifer would rebel, that Adam and Eve would sin, etc. But I can find no scriptures that show He determined them to pass. He knew beforehand, but did not make them do it. It was their choice to do what they did.
convicted1
Guest
He doesn't get it Willis.
A-parent-ly not...
Hi Winman;
Did you read Habakkuk? God uses evil people for God's purpose, but they are already astray. You have avoided saying you agree with this and keep posting nonsense that God did not cause Judas to betray or the Jews to help put Christ to death. Pure fiction.
God's did not change His contingent plan, if they had not repented, Nineveh would have been overturned, but since they did, He carried out the relenting contingency.Apples and oranges. God indeed said Nineveh would be overthrown in 40 days and he meant it. But the people repented and God changed his mind.
God told David what would happen, and that intervention in the affairs of men fulfilled God's plan for David. God did not lie, but simply told David what Saul would do given those circumstances, but then David changed the circumstances. This is completely consistent with my view.The story in 1 Sam 23 is altogether different. God told David what Saul and the men of Keilah would do. David fled the city so Saul did not come down to Keilah. Had not God warned David, he would have stayed in Keilah and Saul would have come down, and the men of Keilah would have given David over to Saul.
God's foretold plan was for Christ to be killed and God caused those prophecied events to occur according to His predetermined plan and foreknowledge, Acts 2:23.God knew the Jews would kill Jesus, but they did not understand the prophecy concerning Christ, else they would not have killed him.
No, no, no!!!! Did you read the passage? God hid the truth from them according to His predetermined plan.1 Cor 2:8 shows if the devil and Jews had understood prophecy, then things would have turned out differently. It was not determined, but God knew what they would surely do.
Did you read Habakkuk? God uses evil people for God's purpose, but they are already astray. You have avoided saying you agree with this and keep posting nonsense that God did not cause Judas to betray or the Jews to help put Christ to death. Pure fiction.
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Winman said:And why do you keep saying I am misrepresenting your view? I don't think I have said one thing about what you believe, I have only presented what I believe.
This is your statement: "If God can only foretell that which he has determined and predestined," This statement implies that you are addressing my position, but I had already posted that God knows the hearts of people and can say what they will do given a circumstance, whether or not He causes that circumstance to occur. Thus you were arguing against a strawman, and not against my view.
See post #71, which quoted your post #62.
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Pitchback 3
These !!! are an effort to have you start responding to my views.
No one said God's foreknowledge of contingent actions defaults to determinism. But I God knows something is going to come to pass and that event is not contingent, it is determined or else God would be mistaken, and God makes no errors.
If you view of foreknowledge is God knows all the contingencies but does not know what will actually occur, then fine. The view is not biblical, but it does not create a incomprehensible paradox.
As far as scripture for God determining that Adam would sin, no plan of God can be thwarted, and God chose His Redeemer before creation, therefore logical necessity says God planned for the contingency that Adam would fall. And God provided the opportunity for Adam to Fall. So in my view Adam's fall was part of the plan, but God allowed and did not predestine His fall. God is not the author of sin.
What's with all the (!!!!)? Relax Brother. God's foreknowledge does not automatically default to determinism. God knew that Lucifer would rebel, that Adam and Eve would sin, etc. But I can find no scriptures that show He determined them to pass. He knew beforehand, but did not make them do it. It was their choice to do what they did.
These !!! are an effort to have you start responding to my views.
No one said God's foreknowledge of contingent actions defaults to determinism. But I God knows something is going to come to pass and that event is not contingent, it is determined or else God would be mistaken, and God makes no errors.
If you view of foreknowledge is God knows all the contingencies but does not know what will actually occur, then fine. The view is not biblical, but it does not create a incomprehensible paradox.
As far as scripture for God determining that Adam would sin, no plan of God can be thwarted, and God chose His Redeemer before creation, therefore logical necessity says God planned for the contingency that Adam would fall. And God provided the opportunity for Adam to Fall. So in my view Adam's fall was part of the plan, but God allowed and did not predestine His fall. God is not the author of sin.
Pitchback;
If God knows what we will choose, and this knowledge is not contingent, i.e. will probable choose unless we change our minds, then we must choose that alternative because of God's perfection. If we change our minds and do something else, and His knowledge of our choice was not contingent, then He would be wrong, and that dog will not hunt.
If our choice is what is foreknown, then God's foreknowledge of it does not necessarily predestine it. God is not so weak as to have to make people do exactly what he wants in order to know what they will do. That's absurd and minimizes God.
If God knows what we will choose, and this knowledge is not contingent, i.e. will probable choose unless we change our minds, then we must choose that alternative because of God's perfection. If we change our minds and do something else, and His knowledge of our choice was not contingent, then He would be wrong, and that dog will not hunt.
Folks, it does not matter how many times they run that Yugo up the hill, it is going to stall out and slide into oblivion. If God knows with certainty what we will do before we do it, our action is predestined by God's perfection. If God knows what we would probably choose, and then causes us to be put into that circumstance without a change in our heart's desires, then that action is predestined. Just like when Jesus told Peter he would deny Him.
Here are the facts. God fulfills prophecy, He declares the end from the beginning, then makes that end occur. Not one person on this thread as clearly indicated that they agree, and cited a passage which supports it. So much for the bible study effort on my part.
Here are the facts. God fulfills prophecy, He declares the end from the beginning, then makes that end occur. Not one person on this thread as clearly indicated that they agree, and cited a passage which supports it. So much for the bible study effort on my part.
As far as scripture for God determining that Adam would sin, no plan of God can be thwarted, and God chose His Redeemer before creation, therefore logical necessity says God planned for the contingency that Adam would fall. And God provided the opportunity for Adam to Fall. So in my view Adam's fall was part of the plan, but God allowed and did not predestine His fall. God is not the author of sin.
I have not heard you explain your view in this way, and I believe this "contingency idea does shed some new light on your view.
So let me try to clarify it to myself by comparing your view to another view commonly known as "God created the Best of all possible worlds: One in which He knew Adam and Humanity would sin." (You can tell me if I've got this right).
View A: In this view, God knew all the future, knew Adam would definitely sin if put in a certain circumstances. He Decided to put Adam in that circumstance because he valued Adam's choice more than he valued Adam's sinlessness, and he did this for reasons we cannot fully comprehend. (this I think, is close to the Arminian position...Cal position obviously puts God in even more of a comanding role than this, but that's another discussion.
View V (for Van): God had multiple Plans for the world, ONE OF which was a contingency plan for IF Adam sinned. The other was a contingency plan for if Adam had not sinned. This plan may have produced a very different Outcome for the world. God HAD TO make both plans because he gave Adam free will, and so the outcome of the entire course of human history was planned two different ways, and Adam's choice made all the difference. (Of course, if EACH human also had the same free will, then any of them could have sinned after adam, and so instituted the fall...though I'm not sure if sin nature would then pass to just their descendants, or all of humanity...but that's another discussion).
Please tell me if I have your view close to correct?
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Did anyone actually attempt to answer the OP? I can't remember. Did God cause Adam's disobedience or not?
convicted1
Guest
I have not heard you explain your view in this way, and I believe this "contingency idea does shed some new light on your view.
So let me try to clarify it to myself by comparing your view to another view commonly known as "God created the Best of all possible worlds: One in which He knew Adam and Humanity would sin." (You can tell me if I've got this right).
View A: In this view, God knew all the future, knew Adam would definitely sin if put in a certain circumstances. He Decided to put Adam in that circumstance because he valued Adam's choice more than he valued Adam's sinlessness, and he did this for reasons we cannot fully comprehend. (this I think, is close to the Arminian position...Cal position obviously puts God in even more of a comanding role than this, but that's another discussion.
View V (for Van): God had multiple Plans for the world, ONE OF which was a contingency plan for IF Adam sinned. The other was a contingency plan for if Adam had not sinned. This plan may have produced a very different Outcome for the world. God HAD TO make both plans because he gave Adam free will, and so the outcome of the entire course of human history was planned two different ways, and Adam's choice made all the difference. (Of course, if EACH human also had the same free will, then any of them could have sinned after adam, and so instituted the fall...though I'm not sure if sin nature would then pass to just their descendants, or all of humanity...but that's another discussion).
Please tell me if I have your view close to correct?
He holds to View W for whatever....
Hi 12 Strings, both of your views are utterly bogus. Have you answered my question, how does God fulfill prophecy. I do not think anyone has, but if you have please give me the post address.
This thread is not for the purpose of finding out what I think, but what scripture says. But unless someone actually refers to scripture, not much can be accomplished.
This thread is not for the purpose of finding out what I think, but what scripture says. But unless someone actually refers to scripture, not much can be accomplished.
God hates lies.
My view has been laid out in detail, but you have failed to answer my question, and so you charge me with yet another false charge.
Here is my view:
God fulfills prophecy, he declares the end from the beginning then causes it to occur.
You are apparently unwilling to say whether this is scriptural or not.
He holds to View W for whatever....
My view has been laid out in detail, but you have failed to answer my question, and so you charge me with yet another false charge.
Here is my view:
God fulfills prophecy, he declares the end from the beginning then causes it to occur.
You are apparently unwilling to say whether this is scriptural or not.
Pitchback
I answered that question twice!!!!!!!
How does God fulfill prophecy. Anybody?
Has anyone reread Habakkuk? The level of knowledge concerning this topic is amazing.
Did anyone actually attempt to answer the OP? I can't remember. Did God cause Adam's disobedience or not?
I answered that question twice!!!!!!!
How does God fulfill prophecy. Anybody?
Has anyone reread Habakkuk? The level of knowledge concerning this topic is amazing.
jonathan.borland
Active Member
I answered that question twice!!!!!!!
How does God fulfill prophecy. Anybody?
Has anyone reread Habakkuk? The level of knowledge concerning this topic is amazing.
I just want to make sure I understand you. So God caused Adam's sin because he knew he was going to cause Adam's sin? Does he cause every sin that's ever been committed? If not, is he really in "control" of everything or not? Is this really the DoG position?
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jonathan.borland
Active Member
Double post, sorry.
Pitchback;
More misrepresentation of my position. I am beginning to suspect a pre-qualification for Calvinism is the inability to read.
Did J.B answer my question or just deflection with a false charge. That is all they have folks, no ability to study scripture and post what it says. How does God fulfill prophecy seems so easy, even a cave-man could do it, but for sure no Calvinist-man is willing to do it.
I just want to make sure I understand you. So God caused Adam's sin because he knew he was going to cause Adam's sin? Does he cause every sin that's ever been committed? If not, is he really in "control" of everything or not? Is this really the DoG position?
More misrepresentation of my position. I am beginning to suspect a pre-qualification for Calvinism is the inability to read.
Did J.B answer my question or just deflection with a false charge. That is all they have folks, no ability to study scripture and post what it says. How does God fulfill prophecy seems so easy, even a cave-man could do it, but for sure no Calvinist-man is willing to do it.
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