No, Judas was still responsible for sinning. There is no where in Scripture that says that some sins are exempt. God didn't force Judas to sin. Judas sinned very willingly. It was all part of God's plan. It's just like the story of Joseph and his brothers. The brothers sinned, yes. But it was all part of God's plan to get Joseph to Egypt. Genesis 50:20, "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."
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God allows but does not author evil
- Thread starter Van
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No, Judas was still responsible for sinning. There is no where in Scripture that says that some sins are exempt. God didn't force Judas to sin. Judas sinned very willingly. It was all part of God's plan. It's just like the story of Joseph and his brothers. The brothers sinned, yes. But it was all part of God's plan to get Joseph to Egypt. Genesis 50:20, "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."
Jbh28,
I think you may have missed the point.
Now I am not a Calvinist, so I probably can’t read very well, but I keep reading things in my bible that just don’t fit with what the Calvinists say.
Such as this verse;
Isaiah 65:12 (KJV) “Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.”
They did WHAT?
Well, it looks to me as if this scripture says they "did not answer", “did not hear”, “did evil” before the eyes of God, and “did choose” that wherin God delighted not.
Now this is "moral evil" authored by mankind.
God did not "Create this EVIL" so perhaps you may want to re-think your interpretation of that verse you plucked from the KJV, maybe even compare it to how other theologians interpret it.
And this passage;
Deuteronomy 11:26-28 (KJV) “Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.”
To me, both of these OT passages clearly describe mankind having the ability to make a choice not to answer God's call, to either obey the commandments of GOD, or not obey, and even to turn aside out of the way which God commands, to go after other gods.
Moral evil, directly the result of mankind's free agency to choose.
God called, and man did not answer.
I can't wait to hear how the expert readers we all know as Calvinists will provide "correction" to what these scriptures clearly say.
I think you may have missed the point.
Now I am not a Calvinist, so I probably can’t read very well, but I keep reading things in my bible that just don’t fit with what the Calvinists say.
Such as this verse;
Isaiah 65:12 (KJV) “Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.”
They did WHAT?
Well, it looks to me as if this scripture says they "did not answer", “did not hear”, “did evil” before the eyes of God, and “did choose” that wherin God delighted not.
Now this is "moral evil" authored by mankind.
God did not "Create this EVIL" so perhaps you may want to re-think your interpretation of that verse you plucked from the KJV, maybe even compare it to how other theologians interpret it.
And this passage;
Deuteronomy 11:26-28 (KJV) “Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.”
To me, both of these OT passages clearly describe mankind having the ability to make a choice not to answer God's call, to either obey the commandments of GOD, or not obey, and even to turn aside out of the way which God commands, to go after other gods.
Moral evil, directly the result of mankind's free agency to choose.
God called, and man did not answer.
I can't wait to hear how the expert readers we all know as Calvinists will provide "correction" to what these scriptures clearly say.
you may want to re-read what I said....
j/k about not reading very well, but you said it. lol
Jbh28,
I don't see where you get I said anything about this, or even that I disagreed with you on the point you reference with this jibe.
I did neither, but thanks for "correcting" me anyway.
When I said you might have missed the point, it was because you had quoted a lot of scripture dealing with the wrath of God, that had nothing to do with the OP question, which was clearly about whether God was the author of "evil".
This is a common question asked of Calvinists, and most realize it has to do with the evil (sin) done by man, and that is, I am sure you are aware, a different thing entirely from the subject of the verses you posted, which just happen to have the word "evil" in the KJV translation.
I don't know if you are a Calvinist, or not, but I did not mean to offend you, nor do I now, but it appears you have missed the point again, or just ignored it.
There is no where in Scripture that says that some sins are exempt.
This is a typical bald-faced fiction. God does not punish the son for sins of the father. Thus if God compelled an action for his purpose, He would not punish the person doing the predestined action because that would be to punish the son for the sins of the Father.
Sin as two very different consequences, according to scripture. First, any sin, coveting or mass murder results in the same exact penalty. If you break the law on any point, big or small, one or a whole bunch, the result is as if you have broken the whole law. This consequence or punishment is eternal and a one size fits all punishment, every sinner gets the same punishment. Separation from God in eternal darkness.
The idea of being "dead in our sins" means we are unable to do anything to reconcile ourselves to God, we are separated and all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags, they do not cut the mustard.
However, a second consequence of sin is incurred, the proportionate punishment, where big sins earn big punishment and lesser sins, less punishment. Thus even a lost person would be well served to sin as little as possible and avoid needlessly storing up wrath - for which they will be punished with torment. Thus, it is this proportionate punishment which will be moderated as necessary to provide perfect justice for those compelled actions.
This is a typical bald-faced fiction. God does not punish the son for sins of the father. Thus if God compelled an action for his purpose, He would not punish the person doing the predestined action because that would be to punish the son for the sins of the Father.
Sin as two very different consequences, according to scripture. First, any sin, coveting or mass murder results in the same exact penalty. If you break the law on any point, big or small, one or a whole bunch, the result is as if you have broken the whole law. This consequence or punishment is eternal and a one size fits all punishment, every sinner gets the same punishment. Separation from God in eternal darkness.
The idea of being "dead in our sins" means we are unable to do anything to reconcile ourselves to God, we are separated and all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags, they do not cut the mustard.
However, a second consequence of sin is incurred, the proportionate punishment, where big sins earn big punishment and lesser sins, less punishment. Thus even a lost person would be well served to sin as little as possible and avoid needlessly storing up wrath - for which they will be punished with torment. Thus, it is this proportionate punishment which will be moderated as necessary to provide perfect justice for those compelled actions.
Where is your scripture to back that statement up?
It's called context. The context doesn't support "moral" evil here at all. You know the word evil can mean moral evil and natural evil. So which definition of evil is being referred to here? Most obviously it's the natural evil.
KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
light is opposite of darkness
Peace is opposite of
a: moral evil
b: natural evil
B is the correct answer.
Notice how it's translated in other versions.
ESV: "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things."
NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."
The KJV's "evil" means natural evil and not moral evil.
Oh, speculative is it?
Judas was the very example I pointed out to you, and you said I provided no scripture. Pfff...
I showed how James 1:13 says God never tempts any man to sin, therefore God could not have caused Judas to betray Jesus. I also showed how Jesus chose Judas knowing he would betray him (John 6:70-71), more scripture you said I did not provide.
This is simple. If God never tempts any man to sin, yet he chose Judas because he knew that Judas would betray Jesus, then God can know and reveal the free will actions of men.
So, you can disagree with me all you want, but don't be false and say I never provided scripture to support my view, I certainly did, see post #34.
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Hi Winman, as I have explained before, I God has a prophecy, He fulfills it, He causes what He declared to happen. Thus He predestines prophecy. I pointed to scripture that supported this view.
Rather than address that, you simply repeated your bogus view that God not tempting a person disallows God from using a sinner for His purpose. I referred you to the book of Habakkak. But you have not addressed that behavior of God.
The reason God knew Judas would betray Jesus was because the betrayal was predestined. No one is disputing Jesus knew Judas's heart from the beginning, that is why Judas was chosen. But this goes beyond God knowing our heart and therefore knowing what we will do given a circumstance, because God had declared the end from the beginning.
Rather than address that, you simply repeated your bogus view that God not tempting a person disallows God from using a sinner for His purpose. I referred you to the book of Habakkak. But you have not addressed that behavior of God.
The reason God knew Judas would betray Jesus was because the betrayal was predestined. No one is disputing Jesus knew Judas's heart from the beginning, that is why Judas was chosen. But this goes beyond God knowing our heart and therefore knowing what we will do given a circumstance, because God had declared the end from the beginning.
Pitchback
Anytime you see, I just want to make sure I understand... stand by for a misrepresentation of the view. I specifically said God did not cause Adam to sin, but He desired it, planned for it and arranged for it. But Adam volitionally chose to sin, he was not predestined to specifically eat the fruit. God allowed Adam to sin, and therefore penalty attached.
The DoG position is God predestines everything but somehow predestined sins are both caused by God and then the compelled person is punished. This demonstrates God's glory. That is the DoG position and it is absurd.
Anytime you see, I just want to make sure I understand... stand by for a misrepresentation of the view. I specifically said God did not cause Adam to sin, but He desired it, planned for it and arranged for it. But Adam volitionally chose to sin, he was not predestined to specifically eat the fruit. God allowed Adam to sin, and therefore penalty attached.
The DoG position is God predestines everything but somehow predestined sins are both caused by God and then the compelled person is punished. This demonstrates God's glory. That is the DoG position and it is absurd.
I would agree that God can use the free will actions of men to fulfill prophecy, but that does not mean he causes a person to sin. God did not cause Judas to betray Jesus, but he certainly foresaw that he would. You have denied before that God can know the actions of free agents.
That this is so is shown in Esther. Mordecai told Esther that if she did not intercede for the Jews before the king that God would deliver the Jews from some other place.
Est 4:13 Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself that thou shalt escape in the king's house, more than all the Jews.
14 For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
You are under the opinion that God cannot adapt to man's free will decisions. You are just as much a determinist as the Calvinists. But this passage shows that if Esther had not gone before the king that God would have adapted to that free will decision and delivered the Jews some other way.
As concerning Judas, God foresaw what he would do, but he did not cause him to betray Jesus. Now, if Judas had not betrayed Jesus, then God would not have prophesied it in advance.
You believe God can only prophecy what he has determined. This would mean men like Judas did not have free will.
You are trying to have it both ways, but it will not work. God could put circumstances around Judas and knew how he would react, but he could not cause him to sin.
God did not tempt Adam and Eve in the garden, he strictly warned them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Actually, putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and even allowing Satan to tempt Adam and Eve was just as much an opportunity to obey as it was to disobey. Love requires choice.
I disagree. I do agree that God fulfills prophecy, but in no way whatsoever did he so much as tempt Judas. Scripture says God never tempts any man (Jam 1:13). In fact, if you believe in free will, then Judas had every opportunity to trust in Christ as the other apostles did. He saw all of Jesus's miracles, heard all his teachings, etc... None of this is a temptation to betray Jesus whatsoever.
God knew Judas's heart and knew even in these best of circumstances that Judas would betray Jesus.
God could bring about his prophecy simply because he knew what Judas would do if chosen. But in no way whatsoever did he tempt Judas. Therefore God can see the free will decisions of men.
Judas was as lost as last years easter egg and of course Jesus knew it, but He also turned Judas over to Satan which sealed his fate and brought about the crucifixion because it was Satan's desire to kill Jesus.
Unless you believe God caused Judas to sin, which would contradict James 1:13, then Judas had to be freely acting on his own. God was not "setting up" Judas, it was not a case of entrapment like when our law enforcement officers pretend to be foreign sheik who offers a bribe to a politician. That would be God tempting Judas which the scriptures say God never tempts any man to sin.
So Judas had to be acting entirely on his own free will, yet God knew that Judas would sin. He knew the thoughts that would go on in his heart, he knew the thoughts of those who wished to kill Jesus and approached Judas.
And God foretold of Judas betraying Jesus for thirty pieces of silver hundreds of years before it actually occured. So obviously God can foresee and know the free will actions of men. This is what Van denies.
Zec 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
God did not cause the priests to give Judas thirty pieces of silver, he does not cause or even tempt a man to sin.
Mat 26:14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.
It is obvious that Judas knew the cheif priests wanted to capture Jesus. I do not know if he knew they would kill him. But there is no mention here of God causing this. Judas wanted money, I have read that 30 pieces of silver would be about $250,000 dollars in today's money. This is what tempted Judas.
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Jesus allowed himself to be taken, he willingly laid down his life for us. But he did not cause or tempt the actions of these men.
So, I agree that God brought about his prophecy, but that does not mean he determined others to sin.
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"You have denied before that God can know the actions of free agents." Winman, this falsehood crosses the line. I have not said that, I have said the opposite! God can know what a person will do given a circumstance, because He knows their heart's desire.
But I have said, if God knows that a person will do something for certain, then that action is predestined because otherwise God would be wrong, and God does not make mistakes.
But I have said, if God knows that a person will do something for certain, then that action is predestined because otherwise God would be wrong, and God does not make mistakes.
You are under the opinion that God cannot adapt to man's free will decisions. You are just as much a determinist as the Calvinists.
More fiction, misrepresentations to the max. God allows men to make autonomous decisions within His purview limits. Thus we make plans but He directs our steps. Calvinism claims everything is predestined, I believe the Bible which says everything is not predestined, things happen by chance.
More fiction, misrepresentations to the max. God allows men to make autonomous decisions within His purview limits. Thus we make plans but He directs our steps. Calvinism claims everything is predestined, I believe the Bible which says everything is not predestined, things happen by chance.
As concerning Judas, God foresaw what he would do, but he did not cause him to betray Jesus. Now, if Judas had not betrayed Jesus, then God would not have prophesied it in advance.
Behold, scripture says God declares the end from the beginning, then causes what God declared to occur. Winman, appears to deny those scriptures which say how God fulfills prophecy, and claims God uses a crystal ball, i.e. looks into the metaphysical future of Winman's imagination.
Behold, scripture says God declares the end from the beginning, then causes what God declared to occur. Winman, appears to deny those scriptures which say how God fulfills prophecy, and claims God uses a crystal ball, i.e. looks into the metaphysical future of Winman's imagination.