Featured Do you really understand your 'opponents' views?

This is carnal reasoning.. The scripture reveals a dead adam, not a wounded one...you want a pre-fall adam.....but that is not happening.

 

I was careful with my words here... I did not suggest that God predestined anyone to damnation...I understand many Calvinists would dispute that. I was merely mentioning their status from birth.

Why would anyone say that. In fact I said absolutely nothing about what I think or believe. Please answer me honestly, do you honestly think there is a signifigant possibility that I would? (Do Reformed Preachers so pollute the minds of their flocks about DOSE EBILL PELAGIAN HERETICS that many of them actually believe that there are a signifigant number of professing Christians who would say that?) That is truly a Straw Man.

Yes.....So... You are answering a question that needed not be asked.

I would reword what I said here... I do not think think it quite accurate to say he "created" them that way. I am surprised you did not mention it. That is a (minor I think) error on my part.

....JBH...has answered you correctly...your portrayal is not quite accurate.

Yes, as I said:irrevocably incapable of coming to him They are left to their own devices and They (left to themselves) with no effectual call are doomed. You may not phrase it the way I did but it is saying the same thing. As your confession says:yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:

Of course he doesn't nor would I ever suggest that. Why would I? Why attempt to shoot down a proposition no one would make?

Whatever you want to call it... it is also precisely what Calvinism teaches..... They have the "Will" to do ONE thing... take ONE option. No more... No less As you reinforce here:

I have decidedly phrased Calvinist teaching disphemistically, and you and JBH are decidedly phrasing it euphemistically. But at brass tacks the statements are accurate.

 

I am just raising obvious questions....in a rhetorical sense....I know you cannot answer them another way...there is a limit to what we can express on a keyboard. I just wanted you to pause and consider a bit...sometime it takes some meditation ,or reflection to work through these issues.

Do not rush and talk past JBH...

 

What is it with you and all of these "confessions" and 'creeds"

Were you a Catholic at one time?

Confessions are man's words. Why dont you try God's Words?

John

 

.

k fair enough: why don't we?

the question really is would he. A legitimate question worth discussion I would think.

I think the disagreement is about what we believe is the nature of God's decision to elect and save. I do not see how the debate Cal-non-Cal has anything to do with it? What makes you say this?

This one again.... we will have to discuss this one again sometime :type:

 

Then your agreement with him with all the thumbs is in direct opposition to what you say now.

Iconoclast rightly represented him.

Is it because of the cal/non-cal fight that you thoughtlessly agreed with an arm against a cal without knowledge of the facts? You say you don't even know about his posts that reflect his position, yet you offer massive support for something you were ignorant of?

 

Nope. I just was in agreement with that post I "appaluded" and "thumbs", that's all. I did not thoughtlessly agree with that post. Man can only have the ability to believe after God's shows them how vile they really are.

 

I have no need to calm down.

When you desire a Christlike discussion I will. Icon did a pretty good job. I really have no need to prove to you that I don't believe what you said I believed. If I say I don't believe it, then take my word for it. Your response to my post had nothing to do with what I was saying to seekingthetruth. If you want to address that or any of my views, then sure. But don't just post stuff of what you once heard some Calvinist somewhere believed and simply think we all believe that.

When you've been around here a bit longer, you can tell me me what to do rookie. Now, if you want to discuss something, let me know. If you want to discuss the depravity of man, we can do it. You haven't offered any real argument for your beliefs, so I can hardly be said to have a red herring.

 

I cannot have a reasoned Christlike conversation with such vicious hostility
let me know when you want to leave the insults at the door and then we can have that conversation

 

oh please. I'm not insulting you. you came in here to a conversation and misrepresented my view. Don't change the conversation and play the victim. I'm not hostile to others and don't insult others. I however don't take kindly to those that misrepresent others views. Or present other's views in ways that makes them appear as evil while leaving out critical info. If you want to discuss my actual views, we can do so. You claimed that I missed things in what I said, well, so did you.

Do you want to discuss the depravity of man since that seemed to be where your opposition was.

 

It had nothing to do with what I wrote. Icon did a good job in his reply so I don't think I need to repeat what he said. God does not keep people from coming to him. HOS said that I believe God does. People don't come to him because they don't want to. His post was not in reply to what I said. I was answering a question that seekingthetruth asked me.

I've asked him if he wants to discuss the depravity of man, I'm willing to do so. But don't come into a conversation with statements that have nothing to do with what I'm speaking about. It was not designed to debate but to put down. It was implied that I'm saying things but conveniently leaving out information to deceive. I do not do that.

Of course. I know you wouldn't do that.

 

God can save anyone, so it cannot be said to be an "irreparably" condition. Now, outside of God, of course it's irreparable. But God can redeem anyone. The death of Christ was sufficient to save everyone. Also, as Icon said,

Man doesn't want to come to God. Even with the wonderful Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, man still rejects God.

No, people don't come to him because they choose to not come to him. They have no desire to come to Christ. It's not God creating people unable to come just so he can send them to hell. In addition to this, God could do this if He wanted to and would be just to do so. God is not obligated by any thing outside of himself to save anyone.

God has sent his only Son Jesus Christ do pay for our sins. That death is sufficient for all mankind. God has every intention of saving anyone that believes. God has given his gospel. He doesn't have to save anyone, much less everyone. If God doesn't save someone, that someone goes to hell to pay for his sins. We all deserve nothing short of eternal damnation. So God does save some. Those that don't get saved never wanted to be saved. God doesn't reject people that want to be saved.

Here is the same straw man from above. I do not believe people are predetermined not to believe. I think I've stated this many times over. God has made an offer to save all that believe.

no, man has a choice between option A or option B. Option A, reject Christ. Option B, accept Christ. Man always chooses what he desires most and men naturally do not desire to come to Christ, so he always chooses option A. Option B is there and he could choose it if he wanted to.

 

So, do you believe man is born depraved or not? Man can come if he wanted to.

Because man sins because he wants to sin. He has chosen to sin. His just punishment is to be in hell. God doesn't lock us up and keep us from coming to him.

They desired their sin more than they desired to come to Christ. They rejected the Gospel

It misrepresented what I believe. That's a straw man.

 

Well, you seem in your statements to go back and forth depending on what I say. The Spirit is more powerful than depravity. People will be in hell that have heard the Gospel. People will also be in hell that have not heard the Gospel. It's the Spirit that changes my heart from a heart of stone to a heart of Flesh. (Ez 36)

He's only "unable" because he doesn't want to come. Really, I think we have the same answer here. What does John 6:44 say? It says no man can come unless drawn. So why is man "unable" to come? It's because he doesn't desire to. He doesn't want to.

No one is keeping them from desiring. Again, what does the Bible say? Why do you think they desire sin more and not the glorious Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm not avoiding anything Skan. If you are going to resort to this, I'll just ignore you. You just don't like my answers. Don't say I'm avoiding the answer. I don't want to do that. So let's not have to go to that.

BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO COME!
You answer the question...oh wait, you would say that same thing right? He is depraved from birth. The gospel is presented. He still doesn't desire to come. Man is corrupt. Man is evil. We all are corrupt and evil. The gospel is there, man still rejects the Gospel.

What do you think of the Gospel? I think it is wonderful and so do you. We look at how bad we are compared to a holy God. We see how much we deserved hell, but God loved us and sent his only Son Jesus to die for us on the cross. How anyone could reject that is beyond me! But people do. They don't desire to come. They think they are "good" and don't need God. They want to make their own way to heaven. Whatever the case is, they reject the gospel of Jesus Christ because they do not want to accept it. God doesn't keep them from coming. They have the gospel there, but choose to reject it.

Our differences in reality is not why man chooses to reject the Gospel, it's why he accepts it.

 

I agree 100%. They choose to not come.

You'll have to go and ask people that reject Christ why they rejected him. You'll get your answer.
Since we are having this same discussion on the other thread. Let's choose one place, so We don't have to go back and forth. I think this topic is more inline with the other thread anyway.

"Calvinists do believe in man's responsibility, but deny his ability to repent and believe the gospel. The two terms are not synonymous. Calvinists believe that man's inability to repent and believe are caused by his own sin ... not any positive imposition on God's part."