Are Mormons Biblical Christians?

[DHK]

Since Luther didn't believe in free will, was a church-statist, and persecutor, I don't go by what he says.

This is a very good site, and this is one paragraph from it:

The origins of purgatory are pagan-

In Egypt, substantially the same doctrine of purgatory was inculcated. But when once this doctrine of purgatory was admitted into the popular mind, then the door was opened for all manner of priestly extortions. Prayers for the dead ever go hand in hand with purgatory; but no prayers can be completely efficacious without the interposition of the priests; and no priestly functions can be rendered unless there be special pay for them. Therefore, in every land we find the Pagan priesthood "devouring widow's houses," and making merchandise of the tender feelings of sorrowing relatives, sensitively alive to the immortal happiness of the beloved dead. From all quarters there is one universal testimony as to the burdensome character and the expense of these posthumous devotions.​

http://www.biblelight.net/prgtory.htm

​

 

[ChristianLady1978]

Wow, I disappear for a week and the whole thread grows by leaps and bounds while I am away! I've got a lot of catching up to do!

That is where you are wrong. That may be the way a Pelagian may think, but eternal life is not a reward.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom.6:23).

Jesus said to lay up your treasure (reward) in heaven where moth and rust cannot corrupt. That certainly does not refer to eternal life. They are the works that we do for Christ on this earth. However the works done with the wrong motivation, the wrong heart, will burn up as wood, hay and stubble. There will be the loss of reward. A man will not lose his salvation because of this, only his reward.

DHK, thanks for posting this! I've spent a while trying to weigh salvation by faith vs. salvation by works for a long time and what you've said actually does help make things clearer for me. I appreciate that!

Courtney may or may not have decided whether Mormons are True Christians, but by now she probably is convinced that most Christians know a lot about purgatory!

This actually surprised me! I had no idea there would be this much conversation about Purgatory in my absence.

Interesting how this thread has nothing to do with the title and (but) goes to 13 pages.

I do agree, Bill. I didn't expect to read lots of pages on Purgatory alone when I got back. I'd love to get back into why y'all believe that Mormons aren't Christians.

 

[ChristianLady1978]

Folks, I came across this link today and finally was able to find some scriptural basis for why certain Mormon beliefs that I thought were valid do go against the Bible's teachings. After many years, I've had to revise some of my own beliefs.

This particular section deals with the Trinity, specifically Jesus being God:

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one." Jesus claimed to be one with the Father.

John 14:9, Jesus said who ever saw Him was seeing the Father.

John 8:25, 56-59, 18:6,8. Jesus in these passages used the Jehovahistic "I AM" identifying Himself as God.

In Matthew 22:42-45, Jesus claimed to be the Old Testament "Adonai."

Mark 2:5-7, Jesus forgave sin, a prerogative only belonging to God.

Matthew 14:33; 28:9, John 20:28-29, Jesus asserted Himself as God by allowing men to worship Him.

John 1:3, Jesus is the Creator and in Genesis 1:1, it states that God was the Creator. Clearly Jesus is God.

I was wrong about the Trinity. I've never, ever understood it fully....and still don't. But the verses above do prove that Jesus in fact said that he was God. So if that's the case then the Trinity must be real. I don't understand how three beings can be the same. I really don't. But apparently, they are. God forgive me for my lack of understanding.

There is still much for me to learn though.

 

[steaver]

I was wrong about the Trinity. I've never, ever understood it fully....and still don't. But the verses above do prove that Jesus in fact said that he was God. So if that's the case then the Trinity must be real. I don't understand how three beings can be the same. I really don't. But apparently, they are. God forgive me for my lack of understanding.

There is still much for me to learn though.

We are all ever learning, it's great to see you allow the scriptures to speak for themselves IN CONTEXT, which is very, very important to learning correct doctrine. Many truths about God we have to take by faith by what God says about Himself. When He says He is Eternal, always was and always will be, this we cannot comprehend, yet we believe it because we believe Jesus' words and the scriptures says it is so. This is the same for the Trinity, it is so because the scriptures say it is so.

The Jehovah Witness cult goes as far as to rewrite God's Word and created their own bible (NWT) so as to reject the Trinity and changed John 1:1 so it would read Jesus is not God. Joseph Smith decided to write his own book ( book of Mormon) so he could discredit God's true Word, declaring that his book corrected the Holy Bible.

 

[fortytworc]

Purgatory implies that the sacrifice of Christ was insufficient. It is an insult to Christ.
Understand this. Christ paid the penalty of our sin in full.

There are dozens of verses that teach the same as below, but for now I will just quote this one:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Purgatory teaches this is a lie.
If the blood of Christ cleanses us or purges us from all sin, there is no need to believe in a myth that something else does.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--All my sins are forgiven right now: past, present and future, as far as salvation is concerned. I have no sins to worry about. When God looks down upon me he sees me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. He does not see sin.
When I sin in this life, I confess it to Christ, as IJohn 1:9 teaches. I have no sin to worry about. I can never lose my salvation. I am God's child born into his family.

All who believe that heretical doctrine do just that. It takes away from the sufficiency of Christ. It is blasphemous.[/QUO]

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another.....Does "the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanse us from all sin only if we walk in the light, as he is in the light?

 

[steaver]

I do agree, Bill. I didn't expect to read lots of pages on Purgatory alone when I got back. I'd love to get back into why y'all believe that Mormons aren't Christians.

There are many points that can be made as to why Mormons are not CHristian simply because of their doctrines that are contrary to scripture. However, for me at least, the most glaring one is this; True Christian are born of God which means they are given the indwellment of the Holy Spirit whom guides them into all truth concerning Jesus Christ.

Joseph Smith is a proven self proclaimed false prophet. Anyone having the Holy Spirit indwellment will not believe the false prophets. The Holy Spirit will reveal Smith for what he is.

Joseph Smith tried to use this fact to his advantage, for he knew the bible, by declaring in the introduction to his book this; "We invite all men everywhere to read the book of Mormon , to ponder in their hearts the message it contains, and then to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true."

Sounds fair enough right? But he continues and forces the book as truth before you even get a chance to ponder it because if you come to any other conclusion other than it's true, well then you just didn't pursue it in faith, or in other words, it's your fault you dont believe it because Joseph has declared it is true. And you must believe Joseph is a prophet of God or you have no faith.

Here is what he says continuing with the quote; "Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost".

You see? It is your fault if you do not "gain a testimony of its truth".

Smith continues; "Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is Saviour of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's kingdom once again established on earth...."

Very humble of Joseph to declare himself Jesus' prophet having absolutely no witnesses and no signs to prove his claims. No one was allowed to read these gold plates he claimed to find buried in New York and the so called witnesses who said they seen the plates were all friends and relatives no doubt given positions within the new cult he was forming. How convenient it is that only Joseph was allowed to read the plates and how ignorant one would have to be to believe God works in such a way as Smith had imagined in his depraved mind.

The very proclamation printed on the front cover of the book of Mormon declares "Another Testament of Jesus Christ". Paul declares that there is no other and any other testament is cursed. Yet even though the book of Mormon and it's history is so blantantly antichrist, it has claimed multitudes of victums and has deceived even true Christians into believing it should be accepted as Christian. How subtle and clever satan is, to blur the lines and confuse many. But to those who study to show themselves approved, discernment it given by the grace of God.

 

[Walter]

Purgatory implies that the sacrifice of Christ was insufficient. It is an insult to Christ.
Understand this. Christ paid the penalty of our sin in full.

There are dozens of verses that teach the same as below, but for now I will just quote this one:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Purgatory teaches this is a lie.
If the blood of Christ cleanses us or purges us from all sin, there is no need to believe in a myth that something else does.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--All my sins are forgiven right now: past, present and future, as far as salvation is concerned. I have no sins to worry about. When God looks down upon me he sees me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. He does not see sin.
When I sin in this life, I confess it to Christ, as IJohn 1:9 teaches. I have no sin to worry about. I can never lose my salvation. I am God's child born into his family.

All who believe that heretical doctrine do just that. It takes away from the sufficiency of Christ. It is blasphemous.[/QUO]

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another.....Does "the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanse us from all sin only if we walk in the light, as he is in the light?

The belief in Purgatory does not take away anything from the sufficiency of Christ atonement. Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. Again, that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. The bible says that it is applied to us over the course of time through the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

 

[DHK]

The belief in Purgatory does not take away anything from the sufficiency of Christ atonement. Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. Again, that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. The bible says that it is applied to us over the course of time through the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy.

That in itself is a heretical statement. You are mixing the work of the atonement with the work of sanctification when they are two completely different things.
The atonement is once and once for all. "It is finished" Jesus said. There is nothing progressive about that statement. His blood was shed, and upon our belief in that blood sacrifice, his payment for our sins, we are either saved or not. There is no progression. Either you receive his gift or reject it.

John the Baptist pointed to Jesus and said: "Behold the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world." He was the sacrificial lamb that has its roots back in the passover when Israel had to leave Egypt. Each family was to take a lamb, a lamb without blemish, sacrifice it, and apply the blood to the lintel and the door posts of the house. When the angel passed over that night only the houses who had applied that blood were safe from death. All houses who did not have the blood applied saw death in their house. As long as the blood was applied they were safe. It was a one time event in their lives. It is a one time event in our lives.

The blood is applied but one time. Our sins are put under the blood. All our sins are forgiven: past, present and future. Eternal life is given to us, just as physical life was given to the Israelites who applies the blood that day. They had to sacrifice a physical lamb. Jesus is our sacrificial lamb, and as John said, is, the lamb that takes away the sins of the world. He took all my sins away, by my believing on him. He gave me eternal life. This has nothing to do with sanctification. The blood is sufficient enough to cleanse me, to purge me from all sin.
The RCC denies this fact by saying that I still must be purged from sin in a future life called purgatory, which the Bible says nothing about. It is a fictional paranormal account of the RCC journey into the deep deep yonder where only RCC spirits have ever gone. Pure metaphysical garbage!

Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven.

More fiction. There is no purgatory. If you are not sanctified on this earth then you are not sanctified, and never will be. Sanctification is simply growing in Christ. It literally means "set apart." When one comes to Christ he is set apart for Christ and set apart from sin. He needs to realize that and begin to live for the Lord. Whatever you accomplish in this lifetime for the Lord you will be rewarded for. After you die there will be no more chance for reward. Period. There is no purgatory.

Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

A slap in the face of Jesus!
Heresy!
A denial that the blood of Christ was sufficient to forgive all our sins once and for all on the cross. There is no final phase. Had the Israelites waited for a "final phase" they would have all died in Egypt. They had to apply the blood, and had to be done that night, quickly.
Today is the day of salvation, the Bible says. Time is short. Jesus could come at any time.
It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this, the judgement. There is no purgatory.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That in itself is a heretical statement. You are mixing the work of the atonement with the work of sanctification when they are two completely different things.
The atonement is once and once for all. "It is finished" Jesus said. There is nothing progressive about that statement. His blood was shed, and upon our belief in that blood sacrifice, his payment for our sins, we are either saved or not. There is no progression. Either you receive his gift or reject it.

John the Baptist pointed to Jesus and said: "Behold the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world." He was the sacrificial lamb that has its roots back in the passover when Israel had to leave Egypt. Each family was to take a lamb, a lamb without blemish, sacrifice it, and apply the blood to the lintel and the door posts of the house. When the angel passed over that night only the houses who had applied that blood were safe from death. All houses who did not have the blood applied saw death in their house. As long as the blood was applied they were safe. It was a one time event in their lives. It is a one time event in our lives.

The blood is applied but one time. Our sins are put under the blood. All our sins are forgiven: past, present and future. Eternal life is given to us, just as physical life was given to the Israelites who applies the blood that day. They had to sacrifice a physical lamb. Jesus is our sacrificial lamb, and as John said, is, the lamb that takes away the sins of the world. He took all my sins away, by my believing on him. He gave me eternal life. This has nothing to do with sanctification. The blood is sufficient enough to cleanse me, to purge me from all sin.
The RCC denies this fact by saying that I still must be purged from sin in a future life called purgatory, which the Bible says nothing about. It is a fictional paranormal account of the RCC journey into the deep deep yonder where only RCC spirits have ever gone. Pure metaphysical garbage!

More fiction. There is no purgatory. If you are not sanctified on this earth then you are not sanctified, and never will be. Sanctification is simply growing in Christ. It literally means "set apart." When one comes to Christ he is set apart for Christ and set apart from sin. He needs to realize that and begin to live for the Lord. Whatever you accomplish in this lifetime for the Lord you will be rewarded for. After you die there will be no more chance for reward. Period. There is no purgatory.

A slap in the face of Jesus!
Heresy!
A denial that the blood of Christ was sufficient to forgive all our sins once and for all on the cross. There is no final phase. Had the Israelites waited for a "final phase" they would have all died in Egypt. They had to apply the blood, and had to be done that night, quickly.
Today is the day of salvation, the Bible says. Time is short. Jesus could come at any time.
It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this, the judgement. There is no purgatory.

NO matter how many times I tell you Purgatory isn't about purging sins again as it is about "attachments to the world" I have told you once, I have told you a hundred times. Our sins are attoned for by the Cross of Jesus Christ. Purgatory isn't about sins but about sanctification. Ie if you love eating (which most baptist do more than God - a joke btw) more than God than this attachment needs to be purged. It is about holiness being in actuality holy.

 

[DHK]

NO matter how many times I tell you Purgatory isn't about purging sins again as it is about "attachments to the world" I have told you once, I have told you a hundred times.

And do you think you can take your new BMW to heaven. Have you not read about the rich man in Luke 12?

Luke 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

Worldly attachments are left behind at death. That is foolish thinking that there can be a place after death to purge one of worldly attachments when there won't be any. Ridiculous! No scripture for it either. Which science fiction books are you reading?

Our sins are attoned for by the Cross of Jesus Christ. Purgatory isn't about sins but about sanctification.

Well Duh! Sanctification has always been about sins--a separation from sin in the Christian life. But those sins have already been atoned for and are under the blood. They need no purging. We have already been
"washed by the fountain, cleansed by the blood,
Joint heirs with Jesus, as travel this sod,
I am so glad I am a part of the family of God."

Ie if you love eating (which most baptist do more than God - a joke btw) more than God than this attachment needs to be purged. It is about holiness being in actuality holy.

I am saved and sanctified. I have Jesus and he is all I need.
Thank God I don't have the heresies and myths of Purgatory that are not found in the Bible. You have a choice. Believe in fairy tales or believe in the Bible. I choose the Bible over the myth of the RCC. It holds no water (just the fire of damnation of the RCC).

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And do you think you can take your new BMW to heaven. Have you not read about the rich man in Luke 12?

Whats a BMW?

Luke 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

This is about atonment not sanctification Did you forget Mark 5:48?

Worldly attachments are left behind at death.

How do you know that? That can only happen if you have acheived perfect sanctification. Obviously, for most this is not the case. Look at for instance Isaiah in chapter 6 look what occures

I saw the Lord, high and exalted...“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”

Isaiah says that he is a man of unclean lips Also note he's in the presense of God. Look what happens next

Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth

He burned his mouth because it wasn't submitted to God. And God wanted him to submit his mouth to him and speak the truth. In a sense purgatory works this way. Except for Isaiah it was about attoning for sin. Yet the the view is the same "worldly attachments".

That is foolish thinking that there can be a place after death to purge one of worldly attachments when there won't be any.

Again how do you know that?

Ridiculous! No scripture for it either. Which science fiction books are you reading?

Do you consider the bible a work of fiction? Lets look at this verse

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

Well Duh! Sanctification has always been about sins

Sins are one aspect, the very begining. Sanctification is much more than just being sinless. If you look on a line if the right hand side is the Perfection of the love of God in every thought word and deed then sin is as far left of that as you can get. God isn't satisfied with just forgiving our sins he wants us to be restored to the perfect beings he always intended us to be before sin. He not only wants us to stop sinning (the beggining) but he wants us to perfect our love for him in all aspects of our life. In essence we wants us to be Christlike. What does Paul say?

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

sin has brain washed us into thinking after the pattern of this world. God wants us to transform our minds entirely get rid of our current programming and reprogrammed into his mind set.

--a separation from sin in the Christian life. But those sins have already been atoned for and are under the blood. They need no purging. We have already been

Ie the doctrine of attonment not sanctification.

"washed by the fountain, cleansed by the blood,
Joint heirs with Jesus, as travel this sod,
I am so glad I am a part of the family of God."

again atonement.

I am saved and sanctified. I have Jesus and he is all I need.

So you no longer have any issues that aren't subjected to God like maybe over eating? Attachment to beauty? The desire for weath and comfort over God? In fact do you not still struggle with sin? Have you attained the perfection of Jesus Christ? Paul says he hadn't are you claiming to be greater than Paul?

Thank God I don't have the heresies and myths of Purgatory that are not found in the Bible

I've showed you how purgatory is reached at in the bible you just disagree with the interpretation because you hold to your Tradition.

You have a choice. Believe in fairy tales or believe in the Bible

Ok I believe in the bible which means I believe in the Trinity, Original Sin, Purgatory, etc....

I choose the Bible over the myth of the RCC. It holds no water

No you choose your interpretation of the bible

(just the fire of damnation of the RCC).

You always have to get in your last barb, insult of the Catholic Church.

 

[DHK]

Whats a BMW?

British Motor Works, a high end car like Cadillac. Like the rich man of Luke 12, you can't take them with you when you die.

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
--Learn from the words of Job.

This is about atonment not sanctification Did you forget Mark 5:48?

:laugh: Mark 5:48? I think the translaters moved it into the Apocryphal books. It is now found in in the fifteenth chapter of Daniel.

How do you know that?

Are you serious? How do I know that a person cannot take any worldly attachment into heaven? What are you planning to take? Your savings account? Your money will be of no value. What else? Your TV, Computer, etc.? You really believe you can take things into eternity?

Have you ever seen a person die and take something with him as he passes into eternity? Has anyone ever witnessed this? We have people who work in hospitals on this board who witness death on a regular basis. We can ask them if, when they die, any of the surrounding things that they possess go into eternity with them.

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither:
--Believe me. Job was right.
And just so you are not confused, this is the post of mine that you were answering:

"Worldly attachments are left behind at death."

TS, You can't take anything with you.

That can only happen if you have acheived perfect sanctification. Obviously, for most this is not the case. Look at for instance Isaiah in chapter 6 look what occures Isaiah says that he is a man of unclean lips Also note he's in the presense of God.

Note that he is not in the presence of God.
Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
--Those simple words "I saw," mean: "I saw," (as in a vision).
"No man can see God at any time and live," the Bible says many times.
The only way people could see God, was through Christ. He revealed the Father. Isaiah had a vision. He was on the earth, in the year that King Uzziah died.

Look what happens next He burned his mouth because it wasn't submitted to God.

More evidence that he was on earth. If he were in a glorified body, one that could enter heaven, he would not have been burnt.
Secondly, Isaiah was submitted to God. If he wasn't, he would not have received such a vision.
The live coal touching his lips was symbolic of purification as the text says it is. There is nothing about submission in those verses. Read them again:

Isaiah 6:6-7 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
--The emphasis is on purification, a coming into the presence of God. Every Christian must come into the presence of God, having first confessed his own sins. What does it say in James:

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
--James is a practical book and puts things quite bluntly. If a Christian is to draw nigh to God, he must make his life right first.

And God wanted him to submit his mouth to him and speak the truth.

God wanted to give Isaiah a vision of his glory. That vision is what motivated Isaiah to do service for the Lord.

In a sense purgatory works this way. Except for Isaiah it was about attoning for sin. Yet the the view is the same "worldly attachments".

Isaiah was not making an atonement for sin.
There is no such thing as purgatory. There are no worldly attachments after this life. When you die you die. You can't take anything with you.

Again how do you know that? Do you consider the bible a work of fiction? Lets look at this verse
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

The fiction is all yours. You can't take anything with you--not in this age or in the age to come (which is after death), and that is all that that verse refers to. You have one life to live. In this life you have choices to make. If you don't trust Christ you will live eternity in hell. If you do trust Christ you will go to heaven. There is nothing between. If you have trusted Christ, then what you do for Christ now (your sanctification) you will lay up in heaven as treasure.

Sins are one aspect, the very begining. Sanctification is much more than just being sinless.

No one attains sinlessness until they reach heaven. Hence the futility of Purgatory. It is not needed.

If you look on a line if the right hand side is the Perfection of the love of God in every thought word and deed then sin is as far left of that as you can get. God isn't satisfied with just forgiving our sins he wants us to be restored to the perfect beings he always intended us to be before sin.

He did that on the cross, and when I believed he justified me completely. My sins are all forgiven. There is nothing more that anyone can do.

He not only wants us to stop sinning (the beggining) but he wants us to perfect our love for him in all aspects of our life. In essence we wants us to be Christlike.

And the Holy Spirit works in the believer to that extent. It will be fully accomplished the day Christ comes again or when I get to heaven. There is no purgatory.

What does Paul say? sin has brain washed us into thinking after the pattern of this world. God wants us to transform our minds entirely get rid of our current programming and reprogrammed into his mind set.

Be not conformed to this world. Be conformed to the image of Christ.
That is done in this world, not in a mythical Purgatory.

So you no longer have any issues that aren't subjected to God like maybe over eating? Attachment to beauty? The desire for weath and comfort over God? In fact do you not still struggle with sin? Have you attained the perfection of Jesus Christ? Paul says he hadn't are you claiming to be greater than Paul?

All those sins are under the blood. I am perfect as God looks on me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. The process of sanctification takes place on this earth and only on this earth. There is no such thing as the myth of Purgatory and it can't be shown from the Bible. There is not one verse that gives evidence for it.

I've showed you how purgatory is reached at in the bible you just disagree with the interpretation because you hold to your Tradition.

You have shown me nothing but metaphysical and existential gobbledy-gook. I hold to the Bible. If my tradition is the Bible I am fine with that.

Ok I believe in the bible which means I believe in the Trinity, Original Sin, Purgatory, etc....

Purgatory is as much in the Bible as Peter Pan is.

 

[annsni]

He did that on the cross, and when I believed he justified me completely. My sins are all forgiven. There is nothing more that anyone can do.

-------------------------


All those sins are under the blood. I am perfect as God looks on me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. The process of sanctification takes place on this earth and only on this earth.

This always makes me think of what Greg Gilbert said in his book "What is the Gospel?" He puts it this way:

“When we stand before God at the judgment, what do you plan to do or say in order to convince Him to count you righteous and admit you to all the blessings of His kingdom? ... [What could we possibly] hold up before Him and say ‘God, on account of this justify me!’

“ I’ll tell you what every Christian whose faith is in Christ alone will do, by God’s grace. They will simply and quietly point to Jesus... ‘ O God, do not look for any righteousness in my own life, but look at your Son. Do not count me righteous because of anything I’ve done or am. Count me righteous because of Jesus. He lived the life I should have lived. He died the death I deserve. I have renounced all other trusts, my plea is Him alone. Justify me O God because of Jesus.” (adapted from “What is the Gospel” p.83)

Sanctification is complete when we leave this body of sin and come into the presence of the Almighty God for one reason: Jesus. Praise God that our debt is paid, we are cleansed and do not need to wait to see God when we die. It's quite a humbling thought!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

British Motor Works, a high end car like Cadillac. Like the rich man of Luke 12, you can't take them with you when you die.

Oh. I get it now. BTW I thought it was Bavarian Motor Works. I don't disagree. You can't take material stuff into the Next life. However, thats not what "wordly Attachments" mean. Its like your life's priorities.

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
--Learn from the words of Job

I know the book of Job well and again you are showing ignorance of what "worldly attament" actually means.

:laugh: Mark 5:48? I think the translaters moved it into the Apocryphal books. It is now found in in the fifteenth chapter of Daniel.

My bad, I meant Matt 5:48. But you probably know that. In other words

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect

Are you serious? How do I know that a person cannot take any worldly attachment into heaven?

Again you purposely misinterpret what worldly attament is. You want to equate it to material things. But its about priorities on living your life. To re-inforce and idea SANCTIFICATION.

What are you planning to take? Your savings account? Your money will be of no value. What else? Your TV, Computer, etc.? You really believe you can take things into eternity?

Again you are being purposely ignorant of what "worldly attachment" means.

Have you ever seen a person die and take something with him as he passes into eternity? Has anyone ever witnessed this? We have people who work in hospitals on this board who witness death on a regular basis. We can ask them if, when they die, any of the surrounding things that they possess go into eternity with them.

Since, I have explained what worldly attachment actually means this is a non siquitur.

And just so you are not confused, this is the post of mine that you were answering:

"Worldly attachments are left behind at death."

Since you don't know what "worldly attachment" actually mean. You are confused. I am not and have never said you will take material things into the next life. However, you do take your worldly mind and way of thinking and worldly way of looking at things. These aren't properly subjected to God.

TS, You can't take anything with you.

exactly my point. You have no idea what worldy attachment is. You think its material things which shows the level of your theology. You can't get beyond the five senses.

Note that he is not in the presence of God.

Oh, yeah thats right. Thats why he said

I saw the Lord

and

and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”

He was watching TV. I forgot they had those 3,000 years ago. I guess Paul wasn't taken up to Heaven either.

[

B]Isaiah 6:1 [/B]In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
--Those simple words "I saw," mean: "I saw," (as in a vision).
"No man can see God at any time and live," the Bible says many times.

And explain why is that? Because of his presense. And why is that? Because God is a consuming fire.

The only way people could see God, was through Christ

Is. didn't say he saw threw Jesus. How about John in his "vision" he was taken up to heaven. Do you think he didn't experience those things?

He revealed the Father.

It doesn't say in that vision that jesus revealed the father.

More evidence that he was on earth. If he were in a glorified body, one that could enter heaven, he would not have been burnt.

Ah so you do believe in purgatory. Funny.

Secondly, Isaiah was submitted to God. If he wasn't, he would not have received such a vision.
The live coal touching his lips was symbolic of purification as the text says it is.

Yeah, I'd like to see someone touch your mouth with burning coal and see how symbolic you feel it was.

There is nothing about submission in those verses.

He obviously was not worthy to carry the message until the coal was put on his lips.James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
--James is a practical book and puts things quite bluntly. If a Christian is to draw nigh to God, he must make his life right first.

God wanted to give Isaiah a vision of his glory. That vision is what motivated Isaiah to do service for the Lord.

Oh. And all this time I thought it was Isaiah's love for God.

Isaiah was not making an atonement for sin.

Oh. So the angel lied to him. I didn't think Seraphim did that.

Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

There is no such thing as purgatory. There are no worldly attachments after this life. When you die you die. You can't take anything with you.

Again you persist in your ignorance of what "worldly attaments" are. So shallow a view. Of course you can't take material things with you. But you do your attitudes and behaviors. and if they aren't perfect in love they get burned.

The fiction is all yours.

Nope Purgatory has been around a lot longer than me and the reformation

You can't take anything with you--not in this age or in the age to come (which is after death), and that is all that that verse refers to. You have one life to live. In this life you have choices to make. If you don't trust Christ you will live eternity in hell. If you do trust Christ you will go to heaven. There is nothing between. If you have trusted Christ, then what you do for Christ now (your sanctification) you will lay up in heaven as treasure.

Again applying the wrong critrea to the wrong consept. You're not even debating with me you are debating ancient Egyptians or Vikings Certainly not the RCC.

No one attains sinlessness until they reach heaven. Hence the futility of Purgatory. It is not needed.

Since no one as you say attains perfection on earth Purgatory is needed.

He did that on the cross, and when I believed he justified me completely. My sins are all forgiven. There is nothing more that anyone can do.

AGain atonement vs. Sanctification confusion.

And the Holy Spirit works in the believer to that extent. It will be fully accomplished the day Christ comes again or when I get to heaven. There is no purgatory

Yes it will through purgatory.

Be not conformed to this world. Be conformed to the image of Christ.
That is done in this world, not in a mythical Purgatory

according to your own words it isn't done perfectly in this world.

All those sins are under the blood. I am perfect as God looks on me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. The process of sanctification takes place on this earth and only on this earth. There is no such thing as the myth of Purgatory and it can't be shown from the Bible. There is not one verse that gives evidence for it.

again atonement vs. Sanctification confusion.

You have shown me nothing but metaphysical and existential gobbledy-gook. I hold to the Bible. If my tradition is the Bible I am fine with that.

again you hold to your personal interpretation of the bible not the bible itself.

Purgatory is as much in the Bible as Peter Pan is

Great! Show me where Peter Pan is.

 

[DHK]

Oh. I get it now. BTW I thought it was Bavarian Motor Works. I don't disagree. You can't take material stuff into the Next life. However, thats not what "wordly Attachments" mean. Its like your life's priorities.

I have read through your answers so let's get this straight. Words have meanings. You don't get to redefine words. "Worldly attachments" are "attachments to the world," as the phrase indicated. Some are attached to money, some to cars, some to computers, etc. The things of the world are material things. If there is one on the board here who doesn't know the definition of English words it is you. You don't have the authority to make up words and phrases and then assign your own meaning to them, and thus confuse everyone.

I know what "worldly attachments" are. They are the material things of this world that people find themselves attached to. It is materialism. I do not accept your definition. So most of the points you have tried to make are moot as far as I am concerned.

I know the book of Job well and again you are showing ignorance of what "worldly attament" actually means.

No, I am not. You are confused.

My bad, I meant Matt 5:48. But you probably know that. In other words

The word "perfect" in Mat.5:48 is the Greek word teleios, which means "complete." I am complete in Christ. It does not mean sinless.

Again you purposely misinterpret what worldly attament is. You want to equate it to material things. But its about priorities on living your life. To re-inforce and idea SANCTIFICATION.

Your wrong definition allows you to come to wrong conclusions.

Again you are being purposely ignorant of what "worldly attachment" means.

I am not the one that is ignorant. I am quite aware of English words and their meanings.

Since, I have explained what worldly attachment actually means this is a non siquitur.

A dictionary will help you.

Since you don't know what "worldly attachment" actually mean. You are confused. I am not and have never said you will take material things into the next life. However, you do take your worldly mind and way of thinking and worldly way of looking at things. These aren't properly subjected to God.

When I am raptured to glory there won't be anything that is carnal or fleshly taken to heaven. It will be a spiritual body and mind. Your whole premise is wrong.

exactly my point. You have no idea what worldy attachment is. You think its material things which shows the level of your theology. You can't get beyond the five senses.

I don't have to. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord--not to be present in Purgatory!
You deny the Scriptures.

Oh, yeah thats right. Thats why he said and
He was watching TV. I forgot they had those 3,000 years ago. I guess Paul wasn't taken up to Heaven either.

More ignorance of Scripture. Paul had full confidence of going straight to heaven.
Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
--He had two choices before him:
1. to remain on earth and be with the Philippians, or
2 to go straight to heaven and be with Christ.
--There was no Purgatory, no intermediate place, no middle ground.

And explain why is that? Because of his presense. And why is that? Because God is a consuming fire.

1. The context does not give any indication that he was not on earth.
2. The Hebrew word for "I saw" indicates that he was seeing a vision.
3. There is no reason to believe that he was transported to another place. In other scriptures details such as that are usually released.

Is. didn't say he saw threw Jesus. How about John in his "vision" he was taken up to heaven. Do you think he didn't experience those things?

It tells us that John was taken up to heaven. He saw many things that Isaiah never saw, and that Paul never saw. It is recorded for us.

It doesn't say in that vision that jesus revealed the father.

I am not speaking of that vision. Jesus came to earth to reveal the Father to mankind.

Yeah, I'd like to see someone touch your mouth with burning coal and see how symbolic you feel it was.

I don't doubt that he felt something. The action taken was symbolic.

He obviously was not worthy to carry the message until the coal was put on his lips.

It was a symbolic action just like baptism is symbolic. The only thing baptism does is make one wet. But since you don't believe that I will use another symbol. How about a wedding ring. The ring does not marry a couple. It is only symbolic that they are wed.
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
--James is a practical book and puts things quite bluntly. If a Christian is to draw nigh to God, he must make his life right first.
[quote[Oh. So the angel lied to him. I didn't think Seraphim did that. [/quote]
The angel didn't lie. You have by misquoting the Word of God.
Isaiah 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. (KJV)
Isaiah 6:7 He touched my mouth with it, and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away, and your sin forgiven." (WEB). I didn't see a translation that says "atoned." You must have made it up.

Again you persist in your ignorance of what "worldly attaments" are. So shallow a view. Of course you can't take material things with you. But you do your attitudes and behaviors. and if they aren't perfect in love they get burned.

Not my ignorance.

Nope Purgatory has been around a lot longer than me and the reformation

So have false teachers.

Again applying the wrong critrea to the wrong consept. You're not even debating with me you are debating ancient Egyptians or Vikings Certainly not the RCC.

No, I have the right people.

Since no one as you say attains perfection on earth Purgatory is needed.

I have a perfect standing before God. That is all that is needed.

AGain atonement vs. Sanctification confusion.

The confusion is yours.

Yes it will through purgatory.

There is none. It isn't in the Bible. Not one verse you have shown.

 

[Yeshua1]

Wow, I disappear for a week and the whole thread grows by leaps and bounds while I am away! I've got a lot of catching up to do!



DHK, thanks for posting this! I've spent a while trying to weigh salvation by faith vs. salvation by works for a long time and what you've said actually does help make things clearer for me. I appreciate that!



This actually surprised me! I had no idea there would be this much conversation about Purgatory in my absence.



I do agree, Bill. I didn't expect to read lots of pages on Purgatory alone when I got back. I'd love to get back into why y'all believe that Mormons aren't Christians.

Mormonism has a non biblical view on very nature of God, as deny Eternal God, as they are a vast number of 'gods", and all commited male mormons aspire to becoming a god after death!

NO Holy spirit, the Father has fleah and bones, Jesus was a son of God, as was Lucifer...

they hold that God came to eath and had actually sex with mary to produce jesus...

Hold to saved by grace and faithfulness to mormon ceremonies/baptism

Hold that ALL go to 1 of 3 heavens...

Hold that their extra biblical books fully as inspired from god as bible was...

Wrong Gospel/jesus/Bible/prophet

Claims to be the restoration of real christianity, as per Angel Morani, but is really getting revelation from satan, not God!