Evanescent Grace

[convicted1]

It does not make sense to say "Election starts and ends with Jesus Christ." There are clearly other passages in which PEOPLE are said to be "chosen", "predestined", or "elect."

Even if you take the view that the "chosen" become the "chosen" by choosing to be "chosen" (which also doesn't make sense).

"Election starts and ends with Jesus Christ" simply doesn't help the discussion, because it ignores places where PEOPLE are elect.

The point is Brother 12strings is that w/o God choosing His Son to die for us, none would be saved. Now that He accomplished the will of His Father, the "whosoevers" can be saved, those who believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them which diligently seek Him(Heb. 11:6).

 

[humblethinker]

How can you know if you are saved if Calvin is correct? Perhaps you are deceived and only believe yourself saved. Perhaps you are deceived and believe yourself elect when you are not.

Calvin said this deception is so real that you can truly believe yourself saved and be lost.

I wasn't addressing Mormons and JWs, I was asking Calvinists. How do Calvinists know they are elect?

Haha Winman:laugh: your thread has been hijacked! So, I second your OP and your two other subsequent posts in effect asking people to address the OP.

 

[12strings]

How can you know if you are saved if Calvin is correct? Perhaps you are deceived and only believe yourself saved. Perhaps you are deceived and believe yourself elect when you are not.

Calvin said this deception is so real that you can truly believe yourself saved and be lost.

I wasn't addressing Mormons and JWs, I was asking Calvinists. How do Calvinists know they are elect?

Sorry for the hijacking...Here's an attempt to address the OP:

1. It seems that there are scriptures in which some people can believe themselves to be saved, but not be. (those who will cry "Lord, Lord," to Jesus, but he will say "I never knew you."...or the Jews paul prays for in romans 10:1-3, who had a zeal for God, but because they would not accept God's righteousness, and tried to establish their own, pauls says he is praying for their salvation.)

2. It also seems that there are places in scripture that God hardens people into their chosen path of rebellion:
-2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. (NASB)
-Pharoah,
-Romans 1: God "gave them over" to their sinful desires.

3. The question is, is it unreasonable, or unbiblical to think there is NVERLAP between these two groups of people: Those who mistakenly believe they are saved, and those who God has "hardened, given over, or deluded"? I don't think it is unreasonable to believe there is some overlap.


4. Regarding your last question, a calvinists knows he is one of the elect just like anybody else knows: By examining himself ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES that warn us in certain ways:
-1 Cor. 16:22 - Do I Love the Lord?
-Rom. 10:1-4 - Is my passion for the Lord based on true knowledge, that is, Am I attempting to trust in my own righteousness, or that of Christ?
-1 John - Does my life reflect love for God and neighbor, and a desire to obey God's commands?

5. If I were one of those deluded into thinking I was saved when I was not, then I would not be willing to submit myself to these, and other, scriptural tests by which we are told to examine ourselves.

 

[Tom Butler]

If someone believes they are saved, and aren't, then the natural question is, why so?

How did he arrive at this belief? He didn't just make it up. He came to that belief from another source, obviously.

It could have been a tract; it could have been a preacher; it could have been a friend's opinion which he heeded.

Ah, one might say, but I'm Baptist and we Baptists told them the right way to be saved. It's repentance toward God and faith the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yep. But how did you get them to that point? Did you tell them to "pray this prayer?" Did you tell them to "come to Christ" down at the front of the auditorium where you were? Did you urge them to "step out from that pew?" Did you tell them to "meet me at the altar?" Did they hear "you need to get baptized?"

Is it possible that they heard that and equated any or all of those things with being saved?

I can tell you the answer is yes more than we think. I know of at least two people who are relying on that. Ask one if she has hope of heaven, her answer is "But I said the prayer."

Ask another or my acquaintances and his answer is "I walked the aisle."

In other words, it's what I did, or what I said.

We need to be certain that we point the lost in the right direction, because if they believe a lie, it's likely they heard it from someone else.

Let's make sure they don't hear it from us.

 

[Tom Butler]

By the way, here's as good exercise:

Give your salvation testimony without ever using "I".

That's probably another separate thread, but think about it.

 

[convicted1]

By the way, here's as good exercise:

Give your salvation testimony without ever using "I".

That's probably another separate thread, but think about it.

God called, God convicted, and God converted a sinner from his wicked ways. Lookie there, no "I's" in my salvation story.



I call this the "three C's" in salvation. Not saying that I created this, but I have never read, or heard it before, so I will take the credit/blame for it....:laugh:

 

[Yeshua1]

How can you know if you are saved if Calvin is correct? Perhaps you are deceived and only believe yourself saved. Perhaps you are deceived and believe yourself elect when you are not.

Calvin said this deception is so real that you can truly believe yourself saved and be lost.

I wasn't addressing Mormons and JWs, I was asking Calvinists. How do Calvinists know they are elect?

satan has blinded the hearts and minds of those under his kingdom, and ONLY the Lord intervening to bring them out of that and unto Kingdom of Christ is our only hope!

And the lost who are blinded do NOT have the inner witnessing from/of the Holy Spirit that they are the child of God, nor do they have the means to perceive and know the true Jesus, as they cannot "hear his voice!"

 

[Tom Butler]

God called, God convicted, and God converted a sinner from his wicked ways. Lookie there, no "I's" in my salvation story.



I call this the "three C's" in salvation. Not saying that I created this, but I have never read, or heard it before, so I will take the credit/blame for it....:laugh:

Aw right! That's a good start.

By the way, you can use "me," since we are all objects of God's acts of illumination, conviction, regeneration and conversion.

 

[Winman]

satan has blinded the hearts and minds of those under his kingdom, and ONLY the Lord intervening to bring them out of that and unto Kingdom of Christ is our only hope!

And the lost who are blinded do NOT have the inner witnessing from/of the Holy Spirit that they are the child of God, nor do they have the means to perceive and know the true Jesus, as they cannot "hear his voice!"

I agree with you that it is Satan that deceives and blinds people, but that is not what Calvin said, Calvin said it is God who deceives men and gives them a false form of grace and faith that is so real that a person can truly believe they are saved when they are not.

Do you agree with that? Do you agree with Calvin?

And further, IF Calvin is correct, how could any man know he is truly saved?

 

[12strings]

I agree with you that it is Satan that deceives and blinds people, but that is not what Calvin said, Calvin said it is God who deceives men and gives them a false form of grace and faith that is so real that a person can truly believe they are saved when they are not.

Do you agree with that? Do you agree with Calvin?

And further, IF Calvin is correct, how could any man know he is truly saved?

see post #23

 

[Winman]

Sorry for the hijacking...Here's an attempt to address the OP:

1. It seems that there are scriptures in which some people can believe themselves to be saved, but not be. (those who will cry "Lord, Lord," to Jesus, but he will say "I never knew you."...or the Jews paul prays for in romans 10:1-3, who had a zeal for God, but because they would not accept God's righteousness, and tried to establish their own, pauls says he is praying for their salvation.)

2. It also seems that there are places in scripture that God hardens people into their chosen path of rebellion:
-2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. (NASB)
-Pharoah,
-Romans 1: God "gave them over" to their sinful desires.

3. The question is, is it unreasonable, or unbiblical to think there is NVERLAP between these two groups of people: Those who mistakenly believe they are saved, and those who God has "hardened, given over, or deluded"? I don't think it is unreasonable to believe there is some overlap.


4. Regarding your last question, a calvinists knows he is one of the elect just like anybody else knows: By examining himself ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES that warn us in certain ways:
-1 Cor. 16:22 - Do I Love the Lord?
-Rom. 10:1-4 - Is my passion for the Lord based on true knowledge, that is, Am I attempting to trust in my own righteousness, or that of Christ?
-1 John - Does my life reflect love for God and neighbor, and a desire to obey God's commands?

5. If I were one of those deluded into thinking I was saved when I was not, then I would not be willing to submit myself to these, and other, scriptural tests by which we are told to examine ourselves.

Thank you for responding 12 Strings. I will attempt to address each point.

#1 I agree that people can believe themselves saved when they are not. This is obvious. The Muslim or Hindu might believe themselves saved when it is impossible they be if they do not believe on Christ.

#2 This scripture is specifically speaking of the time when that "Wicked" shall be revealed.

2 Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

This is speaking of the time when the antichrist shall be revealed who shall have supernatural powers, and claim to be God. This verse is not saying that God sends delusion to all men who are deceived.

Now, concerning Romans 1, the scriptures do say that God "gives them up" and "gave them over" to a reprobate mind. But these are not supposed "Christians", these are men who worship idols made like to corruptible man, birds, fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

#3 I do not think there is an overlap at all. The scriptures do not say that God deceives men by making them believe that they are believers in Jesus Christ. He gives them over to be deceived by the antichrist, or idols, not Jesus.

#4 So, you believe a person can know if they are a believer by how they act? This is the very deception that Calvin seems to be saying God will deceive men with. They will not worship idols, they will believe they are worshipping Jesus.

It is true Matthew 7 shows some men will believe themselves saved when they are not, but what did they claim as the basis of their salvation? WORKS. They prophesied or preached in Jesus's name, they cast out devils, they did many wonderful WORKS. They called Jesus, "Lord, Lord". This almost sounds like Lordship Salvation to me. I think it notable that "Lord, Lord" is stated twice for emphasis. It seems to suggest they will make the lordship of Jesus an especial emphasis.

#5 I do not believe that is what Calvin was saying. He suggests this deception is so strong that a person truly believes they are doing everything they should do to be saved.

There is a big difference between God giving up a person to believe a lie they willingly desire to believe and God actually causing a person to be deceived. Calvin seems to teach that God is in the business of deceiving people.

I do not agree with Calvin. A man may be deceived and believe he is saved when he is not, but this deception is not CAUSED by God as Calvin says.

but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of his goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption.

But in this there is nothing to prevent an inferior operation of the Spirit from taking its course in the reprobate.

Nor do I even deny that God illumines their minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never attain to the full result or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection.

Do you agree with these statements of Calvin? Do you believe God "instills" a false faith in the reprobate? Do you believe God uses his Spirit to perform an "inferior" operation upon the reprobate to deceive them? Do you believe God "illumines" the mind of the reprobate just enough so that they are deceived, and yet has no intention to rescue them?

 

[psalms109:31]

I love using I in my salvation.

I sinned. I owe a debt for my sin, death. I can not pay my debt and be saved. I am a responsible free agent for my sin and without the shedding of blood there will be no forgiveness. Jesus paid the debt of sin.

If I do nothing with this am I saved?

Romans 11 :
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

 

[convicted1]

I love using I in my salvation.

I sinned. I owe a debt for my sin, death. I can not pay my debt and be saved. I am a responsible free agent for my sin and without the shedding of blood there will be no forgiveness. Jesus paid the debt of sin.

If I do nothing with this am I saved?

Romans 11 :
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Amen, Brother, amen!!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Tom Butler]

I love using I in my salvation.

I sinned. I owe a debt for my sin, death. I can not pay my debt and be saved. I am a responsible free agent for my sin and without the shedding of blood there will be no forgiveness. Jesus paid the debt of sin.

If I do nothing with this am I saved?

Very good and point taken. Being lost was all on you..

Now take it from there. Tell me about your salvation experience. Without using I.

 

[psalms109:31]

Very good and point taken. Being lost was all on you..

Now take it from there. Tell me about your salvation experience. Without using I.

If I does nothing with the faith given is I saved?

 

[Tom Butler]

If I does nothing with the faith given is I saved?

Naw, you isn't.

ROFL

 

[psalms109:31]

Naw, you isn't.

ROFL

If "I" does nothing with the faith given is "I" saved?

The quotation marks is your "I"

 

[percho]

The Jews are the natural branches and they were not able to enter Christ because of unbelief. It was not because they were not chosen, but for unbelief.

There was not anyone who truly sought God and none were righteous. God chosen messengers that even they had to make sure their election was sure, prophets and such.

God came down from heaven chosen men first fruit and even spoke down from heaven and called Saul, (Paul) that even they had to make sure their election was sure, first fruits you will say.

God cut out Jews because they disowned Him they are the natural branches; they were there from the beginning. Yet cut out for unbelief, and not able to enter Christ. God kept a remnant, which will trust in the Lord out of them.

To be His witnesses, and us non-Jews are included with them when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed. We are not to be arrogant because God did not spare the natural branches, but cut them out for unbelief. The Jews will be grafted back in not included like us non-Jews if they do not continue in their unbelief.

I agree with this post and will go on to say that it can even take place after resurrection through judgement.

As in Adam all die so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
And as it is appointed unto men once, to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[psalms109:31]

Hebrews 11 :
1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

Genesis 3 :
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[Or seed] and hers;
he will crush[Or strike] your head,
and you will strike his heel.

Genesis 12:
3I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you. ”[Or earth / will use your name in blessings (see 48:20)]

John 8:
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”



Hebrews 11:
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth

Luke 16 :
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”



John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


Hebrews 11:
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 

[Winman]

Psalms, posting scripture is nice, but exactly what point are you trying to make?