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I am sorry Winman those scripture was for Percho to see how those scripture work with what he said.

 

No you didn't come across offensive I just don't want to come to conclusions on Percho post. How is it going to happen at judgement according to those scriptures I gave. I don't want my words to get in the way of inspired truth.

 

-Regardless of the time that it happens, this still seems to be an instance of God sending wicked people a delusion, such that they continue being blinded from the truth. This is not exactly causing someone to incorrectly believe they are a follower of Christ; but it is causing someone to believe that, apart from christ, they are still OK and have nothing to fear. It raises the same sort of questions about why God would do that.

Consider this section from romans 1:

Would you not agree that there are many "so-called" Christians who believe they are right with God, and yet practice or condone homosexuality? Would these people not fit the description of being "given over" to thier depraved passions, and yet also being allowed to believe they are Christians? How would you describe their situation?

I would ask what scriptures make a clear distinction between those who (a) have been hardened or given over by God to believe that what they are doing is OK, and (b) those who believe they are Christians when in fact they aren't.

-I would say that it is precisely those warnings in scripture about such false bases for salvation that will serve the true believer and give him assurance. If I am basing it on doing certain good deeds (Rom 10:1-3), calling Jesus "lord (Matt. 7), and others...then I should doubt my salvation. I would say those who are deluded into thinking they are Christians will point to something in themselves when asked "are you a christian," rather than pointing to Christ and his sufficient work on the cross. The deluded false believer will say something like "I always try to do my best for God," or "I love singing worship songs" or "I have cast out demons in God's name."
-I'm saying the false believer will not heed these warnings of self-examination. But a true believer can look to Scriptures, and look to Christ, and find assurance.
-BTW, This assurance issue, is in my mind a different issue than Calvin's statements on God's delusion; and is not really an Arm./Cal. issue. Since one could ask an arminian, how do you know you're a christian, when it's clearly possible to believe that you are when you aren't.

-Again, EVERYONE who believes they are saved believes that they are doing enough to be saved. The question here is where does that come from. Calvin says from God, You say from within the person, or by adhereing to some false teaching. I guess I would say God WILL sometimes harden someone into their rebellion such that they are blinded to the truth.

I Recognize the difference between you are making here, but God causing someone to continue in a false belief (which you seem to be accepting here) seems very little difference than God causing a person to be deceived. In either case, the person is CAUSED BY GOD to believe some falsehood that they might not otherwise have believed, right?

Would I state things the way Calvin does, maybe not. I have a hard time proving him wrong from scripture, though.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psalms109:31 View Post
The Jews are the natural branches and they were not able to enter Christ because of unbelief. It was not because they were not chosen, but for unbelief.

There was not anyone who truly sought God and none were righteous. God chosen messengers that even they had to make sure their election was sure, prophets and such.

God came down from heaven chosen men first fruit and even spoke down from heaven and called Saul, (Paul) that even they had to make sure their election was sure, first fruits you will say.

God cut out Jews because they disowned Him they are the natural branches; they were there from the beginning. Yet cut out for unbelief, and not able to enter Christ. God kept a remnant, which will trust in the Lord out of them.

To be His witnesses, and us non-Jews are included with them when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed. We are not to be arrogant because God did not spare the natural branches, but cut them out for unbelief. The Jews will be grafted back in not included like us non-Jews if they do not continue in their unbelief.
I agree with this post and will go on to say that it can even take place after resurrection through judgement.

I posted;

As in Adam all die so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
And as it is appointed unto men once, to die, but after this the judgment:
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Today's post.


PS109:31 frankly I am not sure. I believe judgement to be something beyond,
sentencing. I believe there could be an educational aspect to judgement, free from deception from the devil of a physically resurrected person. Isa. 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Are we born in unbelief, blind if you will and can only become believers if God opens our eyes when he calls?

 

When He opened theirs eyes to understand the scripture they have already turned to Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3 :
14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

When Jesus tells us to believe in Him, He means in a way that you can start believing in Him without knowing anything and let Him teach you , open your eyes. To come as you are a wicked sinner and you don't have to understand the deepest things of God to come to Him.

We should spend some time reading Hebrews 11.In their faith that come from God it produced deeds. This is what God said.

Genesis 15:6
And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.

Who's righteousness? Christ who is to come right? Does that make him in Christ the one to come?

Lets talk about faith

James 2:14
[ Faith and Deeds ] What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Faith without these things will it save us from the condemnation to come?

I am not talking in a way we do deeds to earn our salvation, but be moved with compassion for others as Christ has for us.

Matthew 5 :
Salt and Light

13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

 

You are still left with these verses that seem to indicate positive, causitive action on God's part:

You may be right about this, but the problem is it's only your idea about what hardening might be...the question is, does your description fit the following:

Our greatest assurance comes from the promises of God, not our actions. God said "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved", Jesus said "he that comes to me, I will in no wise cast out". I know I am saved because I know I sincerely went to Jesus in my heart and asked him to forgive my sins and save me. If I based my assurance on how faithful I have been to Jesus, I would be fearful indeed. I am assured because He is faithful, not because I am faithful.

On this we agree. you have stated it more clearly than me.

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Sorry, you last post sounded like you agreed that God would actively harden someone into their choice of rebellion, but this post clarifies that you only consider this hardening a removal of God's restraining influence, right?