psalms109:31
Active Member
I am sorry Winman those scripture was for Percho to see how those scripture work with what he said.
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Evanescent Grace
- Thread starter Winman
- Start date
I am sorry Winman those scripture was for Percho to see how those scripture work with what he said.
I am sorry Winman those scripture was for Percho to see how those scripture work with what he said.
Nothing to be sorry about, I simply didn't understand what point you were trying to make. I hope I didn't come across as offensive, because that was not my intention.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Nothing to be sorry about, I simply didn't understand what point you were trying to make. I hope I didn't come across as offensive, because that was not my intention.
No you didn't come across offensive I just don't want to come to conclusions on Percho post. How is it going to happen at judgement according to those scriptures I gave. I don't want my words to get in the way of inspired truth.
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#1 I agree that people can believe themselves saved when they are not. This is obvious. The Muslim or Hindu might believe themselves saved when it is impossible they be if they do not believe on Christ.
#2 This scripture is specifically speaking of the time when that "Wicked" shall be revealed.
2 Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
This is speaking of the time when the antichrist shall be revealed who shall have supernatural powers, and claim to be God. This verse is not saying that God sends delusion to all men who are deceived.
-Regardless of the time that it happens, this still seems to be an instance of God sending wicked people a delusion, such that they continue being blinded from the truth. This is not exactly causing someone to incorrectly believe they are a follower of Christ; but it is causing someone to believe that, apart from christ, they are still OK and have nothing to fear. It raises the same sort of questions about why God would do that.
Now, concerning Romans 1, the scriptures do say that God "gives them up" and "gave them over" to a reprobate mind. But these are not supposed "Christians", these are men who worship idols made like to corruptible man, birds, fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Consider this section from romans 1:
Rom. 1:26-28For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done...(v.32)Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Would you not agree that there are many "so-called" Christians who believe they are right with God, and yet practice or condone homosexuality? Would these people not fit the description of being "given over" to thier depraved passions, and yet also being allowed to believe they are Christians? How would you describe their situation?
#3 I do not think there is an overlap at all. The scriptures do not say that God deceives men by making them believe that they are believers in Jesus Christ. He gives them over to be deceived by the antichrist, or idols, not Jesus.
I would ask what scriptures make a clear distinction between those who (a) have been hardened or given over by God to believe that what they are doing is OK, and (b) those who believe they are Christians when in fact they aren't.
#4 So, you believe a person can know if they are a believer by how they act? This is the very deception that Calvin seems to be saying God will deceive men with. They will not worship idols, they will believe they are worshipping Jesus.
It is true Matthew 7 shows some men will believe themselves saved when they are not, but what did they claim as the basis of their salvation? WORKS. They prophesied or preached in Jesus's name, they cast out devils, they did many wonderful WORKS. They called Jesus, "Lord, Lord". This almost sounds like Lordship Salvation to me. I think it notable that "Lord, Lord" is stated twice for emphasis. It seems to suggest they will make the lordship of Jesus an especial emphasis.
-I would say that it is precisely those warnings in scripture about such false bases for salvation that will serve the true believer and give him assurance. If I am basing it on doing certain good deeds (Rom 10:1-3), calling Jesus "lord (Matt. 7), and others...then I should doubt my salvation. I would say those who are deluded into thinking they are Christians will point to something in themselves when asked "are you a christian," rather than pointing to Christ and his sufficient work on the cross. The deluded false believer will say something like "I always try to do my best for God," or "I love singing worship songs" or "I have cast out demons in God's name."
-I'm saying the false believer will not heed these warnings of self-examination. But a true believer can look to Scriptures, and look to Christ, and find assurance.
-BTW, This assurance issue, is in my mind a different issue than Calvin's statements on God's delusion; and is not really an Arm./Cal. issue. Since one could ask an arminian, how do you know you're a christian, when it's clearly possible to believe that you are when you aren't.
#5 I do not believe that is what Calvin was saying. He suggests this deception is so strong that a person truly believes they are doing everything they should do to be saved.
-Again, EVERYONE who believes they are saved believes that they are doing enough to be saved. The question here is where does that come from. Calvin says from God, You say from within the person, or by adhereing to some false teaching. I guess I would say God WILL sometimes harden someone into their rebellion such that they are blinded to the truth.
There is a big difference between God giving up a person to believe a lie they willingly desire to believe and God actually causing a person to be deceived. Calvin seems to teach that God is in the business of deceiving people. I do not agree with Calvin. A man may be deceived and believe he is saved when he is not, but this deception is not CAUSED by God as Calvin says.
I Recognize the difference between you are making here, but God causing someone to continue in a false belief (which you seem to be accepting here) seems very little difference than God causing a person to be deceived. In either case, the person is CAUSED BY GOD to believe some falsehood that they might not otherwise have believed, right?
Would I state things the way Calvin does, maybe not. I have a hard time proving him wrong from scripture, though.
I am sorry Winman those scripture was for Percho to see how those scripture work with what he said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalms109:31 View Post
The Jews are the natural branches and they were not able to enter Christ because of unbelief. It was not because they were not chosen, but for unbelief.
There was not anyone who truly sought God and none were righteous. God chosen messengers that even they had to make sure their election was sure, prophets and such.
God came down from heaven chosen men first fruit and even spoke down from heaven and called Saul, (Paul) that even they had to make sure their election was sure, first fruits you will say.
God cut out Jews because they disowned Him they are the natural branches; they were there from the beginning. Yet cut out for unbelief, and not able to enter Christ. God kept a remnant, which will trust in the Lord out of them.
To be His witnesses, and us non-Jews are included with them when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed. We are not to be arrogant because God did not spare the natural branches, but cut them out for unbelief. The Jews will be grafted back in not included like us non-Jews if they do not continue in their unbelief.
I agree with this post and will go on to say that it can even take place after resurrection through judgement.
I posted;
As in Adam all die so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
And as it is appointed unto men once, to die, but after this the judgment:
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Today's post.
PS109:31 frankly I am not sure. I believe judgement to be something beyond,
sentencing. I believe there could be an educational aspect to judgement, free from deception from the devil of a physically resurrected person. Isa. 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Are we born in unbelief, blind if you will and can only become believers if God opens our eyes when he calls?
psalms109:31
Active Member
When He opened theirs eyes to understand the scripture they have already turned to Jesus.
2 Corinthians 3 :
14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
When Jesus tells us to believe in Him, He means in a way that you can start believing in Him without knowing anything and let Him teach you , open your eyes. To come as you are a wicked sinner and you don't have to understand the deepest things of God to come to Him.
We should spend some time reading Hebrews 11.In their faith that come from God it produced deeds. This is what God said.
Genesis 15:6
And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.
Who's righteousness? Christ who is to come right? Does that make him in Christ the one to come?
Lets talk about faith
James 2:14
[ Faith and Deeds ] What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
Faith without these things will it save us from the condemnation to come?
I am not talking in a way we do deeds to earn our salvation, but be moved with compassion for others as Christ has for us.
Matthew 5 :
Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
2 Corinthians 3 :
14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
When Jesus tells us to believe in Him, He means in a way that you can start believing in Him without knowing anything and let Him teach you , open your eyes. To come as you are a wicked sinner and you don't have to understand the deepest things of God to come to Him.
We should spend some time reading Hebrews 11.In their faith that come from God it produced deeds. This is what God said.
Genesis 15:6
And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.
Who's righteousness? Christ who is to come right? Does that make him in Christ the one to come?
Lets talk about faith
James 2:14
[ Faith and Deeds ] What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
Faith without these things will it save us from the condemnation to come?
I am not talking in a way we do deeds to earn our salvation, but be moved with compassion for others as Christ has for us.
Matthew 5 :
Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
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-Regardless of the time that it happens, this still seems to be an instance of God sending wicked people a delusion, such that they continue being blinded from the truth. This is not exactly causing someone to incorrectly believe they are a follower of Christ; but it is causing someone to believe that, apart from christ, they are still OK and have nothing to fear. It raises the same sort of questions about why God would do that.
I would disagree, God does not CAUSE these persons to be deceived, he only ALLOWS them to be deceived. He gives the person their own way. Here is what Albert Barnes wrote, and I agree with him.
It is not necessary here to suppose that there was any positive influence on the part of God in causing this delusion to come upon them, but all the force of the language will be met, as well as the reasoning of the apostle, by supposing that God withdrew all restraint, and suffered men simply to show that they did not love the truth. God often places people in circumstances to develop their own nature, and it cannot be shown to be wrong that He should do so. If people have no love of the truth, and no desire to be saved, it is not improper that they should be allowed to manifest this.
God is not the author of evil. God does not cause unbelief. But if a man will not cease to be disobedient, at some point God will remove all grace and allow that man to continue in his sin.
Consider this section from romans 1:
The language of Romans 1 is that God "gives them up" or "gives them over" to a reprobate mind, not that he causes it. It is no different than when we might say, "I give up, I have tried to help this fellow, but he will not listen. I will not waste my time trying to help him anymore!. We are not causing a person to err, but in frustration we give up and allow that person to continue in their error.
Would you not agree that there are many "so-called" Christians who believe they are right with God, and yet practice or condone homosexuality? Would these people not fit the description of being "given over" to thier depraved passions, and yet also being allowed to believe they are Christians? How would you describe their situation?
Oh, I am sure there are, but that is not the issue. It is not God CAUSING them to be deceived.
I would ask what scriptures make a clear distinction between those who (a) have been hardened or given over by God to believe that what they are doing is OK, and (b) those who believe they are Christians when in fact they aren't.
When it is said God hardens a man's heart, such as Pharaoh, it does not mean God CAUSES this hardening in the sense he created it or actively infused this hardening into the man. It is just that God's opposition to Pharaoh excited his rebellion toward God. In modern language, you might say God knew his "hot buttons". It is no different than when we argue with a person, a wise person knows when to let off, perhaps the discussion can continue another day. If we persist in convincing a person that refuses to be convinced, it can have the effect of hardening that person. They will become even more obstinate and stubborn. This is the result of pride. In this sense we might be said to harden a person. We do not cause it, but we can excite it.
-I would say that it is precisely those warnings in scripture about such false bases for salvation that will serve the true believer and give him assurance. If I am basing it on doing certain good deeds (Rom 10:1-3), calling Jesus "lord (Matt. 7), and others...then I should doubt my salvation. I would say those who are deluded into thinking they are Christians will point to something in themselves when asked "are you a christian," rather than pointing to Christ and his sufficient work on the cross. The deluded false believer will say something like "I always try to do my best for God," or "I love singing worship songs" or "I have cast out demons in God's name."
-I'm saying the false believer will not heed these warnings of self-examination. But a true believer can look to Scriptures, and look to Christ, and find assurance.
-BTW, This assurance issue, is in my mind a different issue than Calvin's statements on God's delusion; and is not really an Arm./Cal. issue. Since one could ask an arminian, how do you know you're a christian, when it's clearly possible to believe that you are when you aren't.
Our greatest assurance comes from the promises of God, not our actions. God said "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved", Jesus said "he that comes to me, I will in no wise cast out". I know I am saved because I know I sincerely went to Jesus in my heart and asked him to forgive my sins and save me. If I based my assurance on how faithful I have been to Jesus, I would be fearful indeed. I am assured because He is faithful, not because I am faithful.
-Again, EVERYONE who believes they are saved believes that they are doing enough to be saved. The question here is where does that come from. Calvin says from God, You say from within the person, or by adhereing to some false teaching. I guess I would say God WILL sometimes harden someone into their rebellion such that they are blinded to the truth.
Satan is the deceiver, not God. To say that God deceives people is almost blasphemous. There is a HUGE difference between believing God causes delusion and God allowing a person who will not be corrected to believe a lie of their own making or choice.
I Recognize the difference between you are making here, but God causing someone to continue in a false belief (which you seem to be accepting here) seems very little difference than God causing a person to be deceived. In either case, the person is CAUSED BY GOD to believe some falsehood that they might not otherwise have believed, right?
Would I state things the way Calvin does, maybe not. I have a hard time proving him wrong from scripture, though.
You misrepresent me, I in no way believe God CAUSES a man to be deceived.
I would disagree, God does not CAUSE these persons to be deceived, he only ALLOWS them to be deceived. He gives the person their own way. Here is what Albert Barnes wrote, and I agree with him.
God is not the author of evil. God does not cause unbelief. But if a man will not cease to be disobedient, at some point God will remove all grace and allow that man to continue in his sin.
The language of Romans 1 is that God "gives them up" or "gives them over" to a reprobate mind, not that he causes it. It is no different than when we might say, "I give up, I have tried to help this fellow, but he will not listen. I will not waste my time trying to help him anymore!. We are not causing a person to err, but in frustration we give up and allow that person to continue in their error.
Oh, I am sure there are, but that is not the issue. It is not God CAUSING them to be deceived.
You are still left with these verses that seem to indicate positive, causitive action on God's part:
2 Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Matthew 11:25 - At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
When it is said God hardens a man's heart, such as Pharaoh, it does not mean God CAUSES this hardening in the sense he created it or actively infused this hardening into the man. It is just that God's opposition to Pharaoh excited his rebellion toward God. In modern language, you might say God knew his "hot buttons". It is no different than when we argue with a person, a wise person knows when to let off, perhaps the discussion can continue another day. If we persist in convincing a person that refuses to be convinced, it can have the effect of hardening that person. They will become even more obstinate and stubborn. This is the result of pride. In this sense we might be said to harden a person. We do not cause it, but we can excite it.
You may be right about this, but the problem is it's only your idea about what hardening might be...the question is, does your description fit the following:
Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Exodus 7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,
Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.
Exodus 14:17 And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.
Joshua 11:20 For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.
Our greatest assurance comes from the promises of God, not our actions. God said "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved", Jesus said "he that comes to me, I will in no wise cast out". I know I am saved because I know I sincerely went to Jesus in my heart and asked him to forgive my sins and save me. If I based my assurance on how faithful I have been to Jesus, I would be fearful indeed. I am assured because He is faithful, not because I am faithful.
On this we agree. you have stated it more clearly than me.
[/QUOTE]You misrepresent me, I in no way believe God CAUSES a man to be deceived.
Sorry, you last post sounded like you agreed that God would actively harden someone into their choice of rebellion, but this post clarifies that you only consider this hardening a removal of God's restraining influence, right?
Sorry, you last post sounded like you agreed that God would actively harden someone into their choice of rebellion, but this post clarifies that you only consider this hardening a removal of God's restraining influence, right?
Not necessarily, you must distinguish between God giving over or giving up a person to sin versus hardening a person. These are not the same.
In Romans it speaks of men who are so determined to deny that God exists and continue in sin that God removes his grace and allows these persons to believe a lie and perish.
The case with Pharaoh was quite different, this was a real war of wills. God already knew how stubborn and obstinate Pharaoh was and had told Moses well before that he would not let the people go, even by a mighty hand.
Exo 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.
20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.
These verses do not say or remotely suggest that God caused Pharaoh's hardness of heart, only that God surely knew he would not let the people go. Then God foretold that he would smite Egypt with many wonders and after that he would let the people go.
This is not difficult to understand. Perhaps you have a family member who is not a believer, and is not interested in being a believer. Perhaps you have told them the gospel and tried to persuade them to trust in Jesus, but have been met with rebellion and anger. I had a family member like this, the more I tried to talk to him about his sin and need to trust Jesus, the more angry and stubborn he got. Now, if you continue to witness to folks like this, they will simply get more and more angry. They will become more and more obstinate.
I have learned from experience not to press the matter when this is the situation, perhaps another day they will be more open to listen. In fact, in my case, I was able to talk to this person after the death of a family member. He never received Jesus as Saviour, but for a while after this family death he was open to listen, where before he had utterly refused to talk about Jesus with me..
If I had pressed this person, I would have simply hardened him. He would have become more and more obstinate, if not outright hostile to me. In fact, on several occasions he did become very hostile, and so I learned to lay off. There was nothing else I could do but pray for him.
This is what God did, he pressed the matter with Pharaoh. It was not wrong for God to do this, in his foreknowledge he knew that Pharaoh would never repent and believe. It was just to destroy Pharaoh, and God used Pharaoh to demonstrate his power to the world.
This can be observed in everyday life. You can harden a person's heart, but this does not mean you caused this hardness. The scriptures clearly say Pharaoh hardened his own heart several times.
God does not cause sin. This unbelief and hardness of heart is sin, so God cannot have caused this. He hardened Pharaoh in the sense that he pressed the matter with Pharaoh, but Pharaoh's unbelief and hardness of heart was his own.
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