2 Services of Different Styles?

[OldRegular]

Under the New Covenant, every believer is free to worship God in the way that he/she deems appropriate.

I see you have abandoned right and wrong for appropriate. However the statement above is false. Jesus Christ said:

John 4:24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So you see that your statement I quoted above is incorrect! In spirit and in truth determines what is or is not worship.

 

[OldRegular]

Therefore, we should avoid the appearance of evil by not adding our own laws & rules to Scripture.

And we should quit compromising with the world to impress those who want to bring the world and its trashy music, whether rock, jazz, rap, hip hop, heavy metal, death metal, into the church.

 

[Sapper Woody]

1. I actually didn't make any logical propositions, simply asked a question about what the Bible says is appropriate (my words...not "right and wrong").

2. It seems that you agree with me for the most part based on your last paragraph...what exactly do you disagree with me about?

3. I would actually question the premise that the world decides when we are being worldly. Now we must keep in mind paul's instructions about not making the weaker brother stumble, and becoming all things to all people...BUT that does not mean the world determines what churches do in their corporate worship services.
-We have had visitors visit our church (in which musical worship is accompanied by acoustic guitar, Bass guitar, piano, & drum set) and some commented on how "traditional" we were, and how they liked that. Other's said we were "rockin." If We changed the music every time someone made a comment about it, We would be very unstable.

As you stated, I think we are pretty close in agreement. It was not my intent to put words into your mouth, but merely to point out that as we are talking about "appropriate" and not what is "right or wrong" that there isn't really any scripture to cite. In hindsight, I believe that was your point. However, when I saw the phrase, "Show me in the Bible" and it was concerning appropriateness, in my mind I thought, "Not again. Another person asking for scripture when we need to apply commen sense."

On your point number three, I am not suggesting that the world determines everything that we can or cannot do in our services. But, in my mind, there are clearly some things which the world views as "anti-christian", and we should stay away from that because the world views it as such. Christian Rap is one of these things. The world knows that rap music is inherently "anti-Christian", and so to espouse "Christian rap" is to send a mixed signal, IMO. Like I've said before, if you can listen to it in private and glorify God, go ahead; that's covered under Christian Liberty. However, I cannot, and we as Christians should stay away from it in public worship based upon the world's perceptions.

 

[nodak]

Michael-Acts17-11--If you read my whole post you see that I agree we can misuse "avoid the very appearance of evil" to the point of legalism.

But by the same token, we can use Christian liberty and "relevance" to the point of bringing paganism into the church.

I have a friend who ministers in an animistic culture. Churches here like some in Colorado Springs have taken to the people jumping straight up and down in time to the music during worship.

Unfortunately, there are two problems with that frantic behavior. One, it is common in our area at rock concerts that are the type that appeal to meth heads. They cannot stand still, they have nowhere to move in the crowd, so the frantic jumping starts.

Drives my friend nuts when she comes home on furlough. In the culture where she ministers, that move is designed to make contact with specific animistic spirits.

Explaining that it is "just a cultural thing from the rock concerts" doesn't make it any better. So it is ok to imitate meth heads in church? Or bring in animism?

Complicating the matter is the fact that is a college town, with many students from the area where my friend ministers. If they go to a church at the invitation of a friend, they are going to think they are in animistc worship. And the meth heads would think "cool--you can be a Christian meth head."

So what truly can be an innocent, exhuberant movement in time to music with no ulterior meaning WILL have bad meaning IN THAT CONTEXT.

If we want to be non legalistic and culturally relevent, we better make dang sure we really know what is going on, not be a naive follower of whatever we think the cool people are doing.

And we need to be sure we aren't supporting what we like--be it traditional behavior or whatever the cool thing is--out of rebellion.

As soon as our attitude is "I can do this and nobody can tell me it is wrong" we know we've cross the line into rebellion.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I see you have abandoned right and wrong for appropriate. However the statement above is false. Jesus Christ said:

John 4:24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So you see that your statement I quoted above is incorrect! In spirit and in truth determines what is or is not worship.

It's amazing how much you can eisegetically squeeze into one verse while ripping that verse out of context. That passage is speaking of the coming salvation & soul freedom to worship God in the spirit which would be given to ALL people of all nations who will believe. Where does this verse define true worship as only singing 1950's style music & sheepishly sitting through endless sermons? Sorry, it's not in there. This passage actually supports my position that the individual believer is empowered by the Spirit to worship God directly from own hearts.

I can't say I've ever heard "trashy music, whether rock, jazz, rap, hip hop, heavy metal, death metal" in a church before. We do, however, praise God with the mind & the heart. We actually get excited when we praise God instead of singing old, monotone hymns that sound like funeral dirges. The Psalms, God's hymnal, is full of references to loud music, dancing(no we don't dance at church), clapping hands(yes we do clap hands), singing loudly, & praising God exuberantly. Congratulation, when you condemn other believers for heartfully worshiping our God, you are placing yourself in place of Satan & Michal.

Instead of forcing your beliefs into a single verse, search the Scriptures for every passage which deals with soul freedom & worship before forming your doctrine. Have you never read the following passages?

Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints. Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King. Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp. For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation. Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. (Psalm 149:1-5)

But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: (Acts 24:14)

Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD. And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour. Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death. (2Samuel 6:20-23)

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.(Col 2:14-23)

 

[OldRegular]

It's amazing how much you can eisegetically squeeze into one verse while ripping that verse out of context. That passage is speaking of the coming salvation & soul freedom to worship God in the spirit which would be given to ALL people of all nations who will believe. Where does this verse define true worship as only singing 1950's style music & sheepishly sitting through endless sermons? Sorry, it's not in there. This passage actually supports my position that the individual believer is empowered by the Spirit to worship God directly from own hearts.

The passage simply states, and I will repeat it just for your benefit:

John 4:24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So you see "michael-acts" that Scripture clearly gives the lie to your assertion in the following post. You make the inane assumption that all are obedient to the Holy Spirit! You are completely ignoring that part of the passage that states in truth. Now that is what is called eisegetically interpreting Scripture! You are asserting that all know what constitutes "truth" in the sight of God! Not good "michael-acts", not good at all!

Originally Posted by michael-acts17:11
Under the New Covenant, every believer is free to worship God in the way that he/she deems appropriate.

It is totally false to state that under the New Covenant every believer is free to worship God in the way that he/she deems appropriate. It is thinking like you assert in your post presented above that would accommodate anything as true worship.

For example:

1. Somewhere in the country a pastor turned over his pulpit to a Muslim. He apparently deemed that to be appropriate. Is that true worship?

2. Is the health, wealth, and "whatever makes you feel good gospel" true worship?

3. Is the heresy taught by the Word Faith people true worship?

4. It is taught in many "congregations" that Jesus Christ is not the only way to salvation. Is that true worship?

I believe nodak has addressed some problems that arise from your assertion that worship is what he/she deems appropriate.

 

[OldRegular]

Congratulation, when you condemn other believers for heartfully worshiping our God, you are placing yourself in place of Satan & Michal.

The above statement is inappropriate and juvenile "michael-acts"!

That statement is particularly juvenile since you argue the freedom to worship as "YOU" choose under the New Covenant but revert to the Old Covenant practice in an effort to prove your assertion. If you would make the effort to read all of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles you might understand that what people with your mindset think is worship is not acceptable to God!

 

[12strings]

Jesus Christ said:

John 4:24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

In spirit and in truth determines what is or is not worship.

Exactly...but it doesn't tell us particulars...At our church, we sometimes worship in spirit & truth while listening to scripture reading, sometimes by sing a hymn with a piano, Sometimes while singing a song written last year with a piano, guitar, bass, & Drum set...Sometimes we worship in spirit and truth singing a 500-year-old hymn with guitar and drums. Doubtless some in the room are worshiping in spirit and truth, and some are there simply to make someone in their family stop hounding them to go to church, But in that case the drums are not the issue.

 

[OldRegular]

One Sunday morning, about 15 years ago, our worship service was interrupted by men carrying banners down to the front of the auditorium. My first thought was that these banners reminded me of those seen in movies about the pagan Roman Army marching to honor Caesar. My second thought and all those that followed were the same.

I spoke to the pastor, asked him about the rationale. He indicated this was the latest thing out of Nashville and he would speak to the "worship director" a pseudonym for choir director. The banners never appeared again. I left that congregation some years later because of problems and don't know if the banners reappeared.

In a recent conversation with my brother in Tennessee he said banners were occasionally used in the church he attends.

Frankly I would not, could not attend a worship service where banners made me think of pagan Rome. I don't think the US flag that I love or the so-called Christian flag should be present during worship.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

OldRegular,

I'm seeing a lot of opining from you, but very little in the way of Scripture. Repeating the same verse over & over does not prove your point. In fact, the passage has nothing to do with the form of worship in a religious service. Please read the entire passage & post Scriptural passages which actually command that we worship in the manner in which you prefer. Based upon the numerous passages I have posted, King David's worship of God would have been rejected as pagan within your church. It is interesting that you don't believe individual believers are free to worship God from their hearts, but you are free to worship God as you see fit. That is a blatant hypocrisy. Satan is the false accuser of the brethren & Michal foolishly condemned David's heart-felt worship of God.

The four examples given are irrelevant to the discussion & are a false argument. We are speaking of form of worship, not heretical teachings. The op is about two forms of worship within the same church; not two gospels or doctrines. You keep emphasizing in spirit and in truth, but fail to conform your view to the truth that your worship style is not commanded in Scripture. The truth of Scripture is that God inhabits the praise of his people. To hold to your tradition, one must reject the clear teaching throughout the inspired Psalms which describes the joyous, energetic, musical worship of God. David, a man after God's own heart, would be rejected by the Pharisaical brethren-condemning churches that preach against the worship of God that does not conform to their own traditions.

 

[12strings]

One Sunday morning, about 15 years ago, our worship service was interrupted by men carrying banners down to the front of the auditorium. My first thought was that these banners reminded me of those seen in movies about the pagan Roman Army marching to honor Caesar. My second thought and all those that followed were the same.

I spoke to the pastor, asked him about the rationale. He indicated this was the latest thing out of Nashville and he would speak to the "worship director" a pseudonym for choir director. The banners never appeared again. I left that congregation some years later because of problems and don't know if the banners reappeared.

In a recent conversation with my brother in Tennessee he said banners were occasionally used in the church he attends.

Frankly I would not, could not attend a worship service where banners made me think of pagan Rome. I don't think the US flag that I love or the so-called Christian flag should be present during worship.

Ok, I think I've got it:

1. No percussion: ("praise him with loud cymbals")
2. No Banners with God's truth on them: ("write them on your doorposts")

 

[OldRegular]

Ok, I think I've got it:

1. No percussion: ("praise him with loud cymbals")
2. No Banners with God's truth on them: ("write them on your doorposts")

You haven't got it yet! But hang in there!

 

[OldRegular]

OldRegular,

I'm seeing a lot of opining from you, but very little in the way of Scripture. Repeating the same verse over & over does not prove your point. In fact, the passage has nothing to do with the form of worship in a religious service. Please read the entire passage & post Scriptural passages which actually command that we worship in the manner in which you prefer. Based upon the numerous passages I have posted, King David's worship of God would have been rejected as pagan within your church. It is interesting that you don't believe individual believers are free to worship God from their hearts, but you are free to worship God as you see fit. That is a blatant hypocrisy. Satan is the false accuser of the brethren & Michal foolishly condemned David's heart-felt worship of God. Your position of false condemnation fits both these descriptions.

I will repeat what I said in a previous response.

That statement is particularly juvenile since you argue the freedom to worship as "YOU" choose under the New Covenant but revert to the Old Covenant practice in an effort to prove your assertion. If you would make the effort to read all of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles you might understand that what people with your mindset think is worship is not acceptable to God!

Now you have called me Satan on two occasions. I ignored the first, not again.

The four examples given are irrelevant to the discussion & are a false argument. We are speaking of form of worship, not heretical teachings. The op is about two forms of worship within the same church; not two gospels or doctrines. You keep emphasizing in spirit and in truth, but fail to conform your view to the truth that your worship style is not commanded in Scripture. The truth of Scripture is that God inhabits the praise of his people. To hold to your tradition, one must reject the clear teaching throughout the inspired Psalms which describes the joyous, energetic, musical worship of God. David, a man after God's own heart, would be rejected by the Pharisaical brethren-condemning churches that preach against the worship of God that does not conform to their own traditions.

Again you are using Old Covenant practice in an attempt to prove your assertion that the New Covenant gives every believer unrestrained license as to what constitutes worship of God.

The four examples perfectly illustrate what you advocate:

Originally Posted by michael-acts17:11
Under the New Covenant, every believer is free to worship God in the way that he/she deems appropriate.

 

[Dr. Bob]

No one is calling you Satan.

When you falsely accuse a brother, you are acting like Satan acted.

 

[OldRegular]

No one is calling you Satan.

When you falsely accuse a brother, you are acting like Satan acted.

Show me where I falsely accused a brother! And what did I falsely accuse him of?

I do not believe I have accused an individual of anything other than misuse of Scripture. I have stated and will continue to state that i believe it is wrong for a congregation to bring the currently popular music of the world [rock, rap, hip hop, heavy metal, death metal, etc.] into the worship service. The point is that the churches are compromising with the world. That is never edifying to the body of Jesus Christ. I have said elsewhere that the church should be an affront to the world and the world systems, not a partner in the corruption of the world.

Now Dr. Bob if I accused you of acting like Satan would you be offended? I think so! There are other ways to disagree rather than stooping to such levels!

 

[Fred's Wife]

I have stated and will continue to state that i believe it is wrong for a congregation to bring the currently popular music of the world [rock, rap, hip hop, heavy metal, death metal, etc.] into the worship service. The point is that the churches are compromising with the world. That is never edifying to the body of Jesus Christ. I have said elsewhere that the church should be an affront to the world and the world systems, not a partner in the corruption of the world.

Amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Instead of taking the Gospel TO the world and being separate FROM the world, the church is compromising WITH the world and allowing its influence to come INTO the church through its music, etc.

 

[12strings]

Amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Instead of taking the Gospel TO the world and being separate FROM the world, the church is compromising WITH the world and allowing its influence to come INTO the church through its music, etc.

...you didn't finish!

"Allowing its influence to come into the church through its music, electricity, air-conditioning, neck-ties, eye-glasses, padded seats, Clothes from the Evil wal-mart that were manufactured by underpaid workers in china, etc."


We should not use any of these, and many more, as they reveal the world's influence on us, right?

I think the big difference is not seeing that even something the world uses for its own ungodly purposes can be redeemed.

 

[OldRegular]

Amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Instead of taking the Gospel TO the world and being separate FROM the world, the church is compromising WITH the world and allowing its influence to come INTO the church through its music, etc.

Well said!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Yeshua1]

And we should quit compromising with the world to impress those who want to bring the world and its trashy music, whether rock, jazz, rap, hip hop, heavy metal, death metal, into the church.

the Bible states that paul principle was to meet and engage the people where they were at thiough!

its NOT any style that make sit wrong to God, its what the lryrics are!

So IF those are good, heart is right, God honoes hip hop, heavy metal etc, as he will use those to speak to certain persons that would never stand for 'Old rugged Cross"

 

[OldRegular]

the Bible states that paul principle was to meet and engage the people where they were at thiough!

its NOT any style that make sit wrong to God, its what the lryrics are!

So IF those are good, heart is right, God honoes hip hop, heavy metal etc, as he will use those to speak to certain persons that would never stand for 'Old rugged Cross"

You have identified the problem. It is likely that all they hear is hip hop etc., and they never hear about the Cross!