2 Services of Different Styles?

[Yeshua1]

You have identified the problem. It is likely that all they hear is hip hop etc., and they never hear about the Cross!

IF the lyrics mention jesus, the Cross they will!

Do you denty the power of the Spirit to reveal jesus to sinners, regardless if country/rock/hymns etc?

 

[OldRegular]

IF the lyrics mention jesus, the Cross they will!

Am I to assume you are familiar with all such noise made in "worship services"?

Do you denty the power of the Spirit to reveal jesus to sinners, regardless if country/rock/hymns etc?

God will bring all His elect to salvation. That is a fact. The problem: Does the noise some call music edify God od satisfy the desires of the flesh of some in the congregation?

 

[Yeshua1]

Am I to assume you are familiar with all such noise made in "worship services"?



God will bring all His elect to salvation. That is a fact. The problem: Does the noise some call music edify God od satisfy the desires of the flesh of some in the congregation?

music has no intrisic nature to it though!

can be good or bad, just depends on what is being sung and why!

And playing harder beat is NOT in the flesh nor denying the Lord!

 

[Fred's Wife]

And we should quit compromising with the world to impress those who want to bring the world and its trashy music, whether rock, jazz, rap, hip hop, heavy metal, death metal, into the church.

I agree...

Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

I have stated and will continue to state that i believe it is wrong for a congregation to bring the currently popular music of the world [rock, rap, hip hop, heavy metal, death metal, etc.] into the worship service. The point is that the churches are compromising with the world. That is never edifying to the body of Jesus Christ. I have said elsewhere that the church should be an affront to the world and the world systems, not a partner in the corruption of the world.

...you didn't finish!

"Allowing its influence to come into the church through its music, electricity, air-conditioning, neck-ties, eye-glasses, padded seats, Clothes from the Evil wal-mart that were manufactured by underpaid workers in china, etc."


We should not use any of these, and many more, as they reveal the world's influence on us, right?

I think the big difference is not seeing that even something the world uses for its own ungodly purposes can be redeemed.

I was addressing the the church's compromise with the world's MUSIC.

And yes I did finish....electricity, air-conditioning, neckties, eyeglasses, and padded seats/pews have nothing to do with how we worship and glorify God in a worship service at church. There are many people who say that the only way to win the world to Christ is to be more like the world. God's Word says that His people are lights to the unbelievers by BEING DIFFERENT, by being separated from the appearance of evil, not by BEING WORLDLY!

 

[OldRegular]

I agree...

Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Very appropriate Scripture.

I was addressing the the church's compromise with the world's MUSIC.

And yes I did finish....electricity, air-conditioning, neckties, eyeglasses, and padded seats/pews have nothing to do with how we worship and glorify God in a worship service at church. There are many people who say that the only way to win the world to Christ is to be more like the world. God's Word says that His people are lights to the unbelievers by BEING DIFFERENT, by being separated from the appearance of evil, not by BEING WORLDLY!

You are correct and you did finish. The comment regarding electricity and others is simply a "red herring".

 

[Yeshua1]

Very appropriate Scripture.





You are correct and you did finish. The comment regarding electricity and others is simply a "red herring".

again, music styles in and by themselves NOT godly/ungodly, it depends upon lryics and intent!

 

[Fred's Wife]

music has no intrisic nature to it though!

can be good or bad, just depends on what is being sung and why!

And playing harder beat is NOT in the flesh nor denying the Lord!

The following is from Music in the Balance by Frank Garlock and Kurt Woetzel, Copyright 1992, Majesty Music, pp. 55-59:

"Music is considered to have three primary parts: melody, harmony, and rhythm. ... The most prominent part of the music should be the melody. It is the horizontal arrangement of sounds which is recognized first when we sing a song like `When I Survey the Wondrous Cross.' . The harmony is the vertical aspect of the music, or the chords of the music. It is the sounds which are heard when the individual parts coincide. In what is called homophonic music, the voices sound simultaneously most of the time. By contrast, in polyphonic music in which the individual voices are more independent, the harmony is less pronounced because of the dominance of the melodic lines and their linear movement. The rhythm makes the music move. If it were not for the rhythm, the music could not progress-it would stand still as one continuous, quickly boring, and uninteresting sound.

"The part of music to which the spirit responds is the melody. Ephesians 5:18-19 gives us a clear indication the part of music which God wants to be preeminent in the music of a Christian. Verse 18 commands us to be `filled with the spirit.' The word `filled' literally means `to be controlled.' The very next verse then states that we should be `making melody.' The words translated `singing and making melody' in Ephesians 5:19 come from two Greek words: adontes, meaning `singing' and psallontes, meaning `psalming,' or `putting music to poetry' (setting poetry to music), which is what the word melody means. Melody comes from two Greek words, meloidia meaning `choral song,' derived from melos, tune, plus aoidein, `to sing.'... This instrumental term refers to the music and only by implication to the words. Thus, when the King James Version of Scripture follows the command to be filled with the Spirit with the musical form melody, it is accurately teaching that this element of music and God's control in our lives are closely related.

"The part of music to which your mind responds is the harmony. Harmony is the intellectual part of music. Extensive training and a disciplined lifelong study are required to write and understand music with correct harmony. ... A correct, good-sounding, mood-producing harmony can be arranged and effectively written only by a trained musician. The word harmony, ultimately from the Greek word for `joint,' suggests the idea of fitting together. The harmony joins the melody and the rhythm together.

"The part of music to which your body responds is the rhythm. The Greek word from which the word rhythm comes is rheo, which means `to flow,' or `to pulse.' Although this word is not used in relation to music in the Bible, its meaning and use do give some insight concerning rhythm in music. For instance, Jesus used this word in John 7:38 when He said, `He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.' The rhythm is the pulse of the music, and the analogy between the pulse and rhythm will help any desirous Christian to gain discernment in his choice of music.

Too much (or erratic pulse Body is sick

Too much (or erratic rhythm Music is sick

No pulse Body is dead

No rhythm Music is dead

Pulse under contro Body is well

Rhythm under control Music is `well'

"Rhythm is the physical part of music.

"The Christian with a Scriptural order and balance in his life emphasizes the spiritual first (Matthew 6:33), the intellectual or emotional second (2Co 10:5), and the physical last (Romans 13:14). Consider also Proverbs 3:5-6 and Luke 12:31.

"Just as the spiritual considerations of life receive priority by the balanced Christian, so the melody (that part of music to which the spirit responds) must dominate the music in the Christian's life. Similarly, the harmony (that part of music to which the mind and emotions respond) needs to have a supportive role in music, just as the mind and the emotions play a secondary role in the Christian experience. Last, and most obvious, the rhythm (that part of music to which the body responds) must be under strict control in music, just as the body and its desires need to be disciplined in the Christian's life. If we genuinely want to do right and understand, then these concepts become extremely sensible and logical. But frequently, as in other areas of the Christian life, our tastes, preferences, and opinions blur our vision and interfere with comprehension. Consider Paul's words as he speaks of the body: `For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live (Romans 8:13). `But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway' (1 Corinthians 9:27).

"The body must be in proper relationship with the mind and spirit. It is not that rhythm should be abandoned, but it needs to be in proper balance with the harmony and the melody. ...

"If the body and physical things are a priority in one's life, that person is sensual. If the rhythm is the primary dominating part of any piece of music, then that music is sensual. ...

"The pulse is there to sustain life. It does not call attention to itself in that role. Rhythm should play the same part in music. It is there to keep the music moving, not to dominate the sound"

 

[12strings]

I was addressing the the church's compromise with the world's MUSIC.

And yes I did finish....electricity, air-conditioning, neckties, eyeglasses, and padded seats/pews have nothing to do with how we worship and glorify God in a worship service at church. There are many people who say that the only way to win the world to Christ is to be more like the world. God's Word says that His people are lights to the unbelievers by BEING DIFFERENT, by being separated from the appearance of evil, not by BEING WORLDLY!

Then why do we wear pants instead of robes...if we really wanted to be different and biblical, we'd wear robes, and most men would have beards, and we'd all practice foot-washing.

BTW...

"The pulse is there to sustain life. It does not call attention to itself in that role. Rhythm should play the same part in music. It is there to keep the music moving, not to dominate the sound"

This is exactly right...This must be why a 92-year old matriarch of the church told me last month that she really appreciated our Drummer Adam...he compliments our music, not overpowering it.

 

[12strings]

The fact remains that when you get down to specifics (Instuments, beat patterns, decibals of rhythm vs. decibals of melody & harmony), there is NO way to link any supposed restrictions to biblical texts.

Even defining rock music is problematic, because the moment you define it as music with the emphasis on 2 & 4, you will find Rock songs in 3/4 and 7/4.

What do you do with the Satanist who gets saved, and the Beethoven organ music reminds him of his satanic rituals?

 

[ktn4eg]

A "classic" example of what 12 Strings refers to was mentioned in another of my posts on another thread.

The 2d movement of Haydn's String Quartet 62, Op. 76 #2 was adapted to John Newton's ("Amazing Grace") hymn, "Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken." This would, according to some, make that music "Christian."

OTOH, this same music was used in what originally was the Austrian Empire's anthem, and which survives today as Germany's national anthem, "Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles" (Germany, Germany, Over All). This reportedly was one of Adolph Hitler's favorite songs.

Was Haydn's music "Christian" or was it "worldly"?

 

[Fred's Wife]

A "classic" example of what 12 Strings refers to was mentioned in another of my posts on another thread.

The 2d movement of Haydn's String Quartet 62, Op. 76 #2 was adapted to John Newton's ("Amazing Grace") hymn, "Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken." This would, according to some, make that music "Christian."

OTOH, this same music was used in what originally was the Austrian Empire's anthem, and which survives today as Germany's national anthem, "Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles" (Germany, Germany, Over All). This reportedly was one of Adolph Hitler's favorite songs.

Was Haydn's music "Christian" or was it "worldly"?

Wasn't Haydn's music considered "Classical" rather than "worldly"?

Haydn wrote some beautiful Classical music and the lyrics of traditional Gospel hymns which are adapted to that type of music are beautiful.

The fact that the "2d movement of Haydn's String Quartet 62, Op. 76 #2" was the Austrian Empire's anthem, was used as Germany's national anthem, and was one of Adolph Hitler's favorite songs, doesn't change the "type" of music that Haydn originally wrote.

Today we have people adapting the lyrics of traditional Gospel hymns to the tunes of Rock and Roll, hip hop and rap types of music. These are called Gospel "parodies". Though the lyrics may be biblically sound, the music is not Christian, but "worldly" and "sensual". Most of that kind of music is not even understandable. Also, it is more the "rhythm" and the "beat" of the music (rather than the lyrics) on which the listener focuses...rather than on Christ.

Candy coating Rock and Roll, hip hop, and rap music with Gospel lyrics doesn't make that music "Gospel", or "Christian". All this "candy coating" does is to make the music more "appealing" to the "sensual/flesh".

IMO, that kind of music (Rock and Roll, hip hop, and rap) is not acceptable music to be used in a church worship service.

 

[12strings]

Wasn't Haydn's music considered "Classical" rather than "worldly"?

Haydn wrote some beautiful Classical music and the lyrics of traditional Gospel hymns which are adapted to that type of music are beautiful.

The fact that the "2d movement of Haydn's String Quartet 62, Op. 76 #2" was the Austrian Empire's anthem, was used as Germany's national anthem, and was one of Adolph Hitler's favorite songs, doesn't change the "type" of music that Haydn originally wrote.

Today we have people adapting the lyrics of traditional Gospel hymns to the tunes of Rock and Roll, hip hop and rap types of music. These are called Gospel "parodies". Though the lyrics may be biblically sound, the music is not Christian, but "worldly" and "sensual". Most of that kind of music is not even understandable. Also, it is more the "rhythm" and the "beat" of the music (rather than the lyrics) on which the listener focuses...rather than on Christ.

Candy coating Rock and Roll, hip hop, and rap music with Gospel lyrics doesn't make that music "Gospel", or "Christian". All this "candy coating" does is to make the music more "appealing" to the "sensual/flesh".

IMO, that kind of music (Rock and Roll, hip hop, and rap) is not acceptable music to be used in a church worship service.

That's exactly the point. Haydn's music was originally written for secular entertainment. So what determines that his is "classical" and Some-one else's is wordly.

I will say that when the actual songs themselves are taken and given new lyrics, that is almost never helpful, because the associations are so strong one can't get the original lyrics out of their head...but I'm primarily talking about NEW MUSIC...written specifically for the church, played and led using guitars & drums...where is the biblical prohibition against this?

 

[Yeshua1]

That's exactly the point. Haydn's music was originally written for secular entertainment. So what determines that his is "classical" and Some-one else's is wordly.

I will say that when the actual songs themselves are taken and given new lyrics, that is almost never helpful, because the associations are so strong one can't get the original lyrics out of their head...but I'm primarily talking about NEW MUSIC...written specifically for the church, played and led using guitars & drums...where is the biblical prohibition against this?

So one can do 'how Great thou Art" at a slow tempo, yet when Elvis sung it faster paced, that made it bad by just speeding it up?

is this kinda like swallowing a camal, and straining on a Gnat?

 

[Yeshua1]

Wasn't Haydn's music considered "Classical" rather than "worldly"?

Haydn wrote some beautiful Classical music and the lyrics of traditional Gospel hymns which are adapted to that type of music are beautiful.

The fact that the "2d movement of Haydn's String Quartet 62, Op. 76 #2" was the Austrian Empire's anthem, was used as Germany's national anthem, and was one of Adolph Hitler's favorite songs, doesn't change the "type" of music that Haydn originally wrote.

Today we have people adapting the lyrics of traditional Gospel hymns to the tunes of Rock and Roll, hip hop and rap types of music. These are called Gospel "parodies". Though the lyrics may be biblically sound, the music is not Christian, but "worldly" and "sensual". Most of that kind of music is not even understandable. Also, it is more the "rhythm" and the "beat" of the music (rather than the lyrics) on which the listener focuses...rather than on Christ.

Candy coating Rock and Roll, hip hop, and rap music with Gospel lyrics doesn't make that music "Gospel", or "Christian". All this "candy coating" does is to make the music more "appealing" to the "sensual/flesh".

IMO, that kind of music (Rock and Roll, hip hop, and rap) is not acceptable music to be used in a church worship service.

so elvis/petra/Third day etc would all be singing 'false christian parody of rock?"

 

[OldRegular]

Wasn't Haydn's music considered "Classical" rather than "worldly"?

Haydn wrote some beautiful Classical music and the lyrics of traditional Gospel hymns which are adapted to that type of music are beautiful.

The fact that the "2d movement of Haydn's String Quartet 62, Op. 76 #2" was the Austrian Empire's anthem, was used as Germany's national anthem, and was one of Adolph Hitler's favorite songs, doesn't change the "type" of music that Haydn originally wrote.

Today we have people adapting the lyrics of traditional Gospel hymns to the tunes of Rock and Roll, hip hop and rap types of music. These are called Gospel "parodies". Though the lyrics may be biblically sound, the music is not Christian, but "worldly" and "sensual". Most of that kind of music is not even understandable. Also, it is more the "rhythm" and the "beat" of the music (rather than the lyrics) on which the listener focuses...rather than on Christ.

Candy coating Rock and Roll, hip hop, and rap music with Gospel lyrics doesn't make that music "Gospel", or "Christian". All this "candy coating" does is to make the music more "appealing" to the "sensual/flesh".

IMO, that kind of music (Rock and Roll, hip hop, and rap) is not acceptable music to be used in a church worship service.

Thank you for your posts. You obviously know much more about music than I do. I believe you rightly state that

it is more the "rhythm" and the "beat" of the music (rather than the lyrics) on which the listener focuses...rather than on Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for your posts. You obviously know much more about music than I do. I believe you rightly state that

again, would those such as third day/petra/elvis etc that sang Gospel at rock beat were sinning then?

Not singing 'Christian music?"

 

[Fred's Wife]

Thank you for your posts. You obviously know much more about music than I do. I believe you rightly state that

I appreciate your kind comments. I believe the style of music matters in a church worship service and that style should glorify the Lord and keep our focus on Him. In a nutshell, as the "Conclusion" of the following article states, "the message of the music must match the lyrics."

CONCLUSION

We conclude that music is not “neutral” or “amoral.” Music is a language, and in the Christian realm the message of the music must match the message of the lyrics. There are many styles of worldly music that preach a message that is contradictory to the Bible and therefore cannot be used in the service of a holy God.

I close with the testimony of a man who left the contemporary music scene after having led contemporary worship teams in two churches:

“I am now convinced that God will not accept our worship when it is offered with music styles that are also used by pagans for their immoral practices. If I am wrong, why was He so harsh in judging Israel when they sacrificed to Him using the pagan high places and rituals? He is a jealous God. If you grasp this principle alone, it will change for ever the way you lead a worship service. … The true heart of worship is the heart that bows before God and submits to his Word, no more and no less” (Dan Lucarini, Confessions of a Former Worship Leader, p. 57).

If Music Is Neutral

 

[Fred's Wife]

again, would those such as third day/petra/elvis etc that sang Gospel at rock beat were sinning then?

Not singing 'Christian music?"

Does the rock "beat" of groups such as Petra/Third Day/Elvis, etc. gratify the "flesh" or glorify God? Does the message of the music match the lyrics?

I am not the judge of whether someone is sinning if they sing a certain style of music, only the Holy Spirit of God will convict a person of sin. If a person feels no Holy Spirit conviction, perhaps that person needs to "examine themselves" (2 Cor. 13:5).

 

[Yeshua1]

Does the rock "beat" of groups such as Petra/Third Day/Elvis, etc. gratify the "flesh" or glorify God? Does the message of the music match the lyrics?

I am not the judge of whether someone is sinning if they sing a certain style of music, only the Holy Spirit of God will convict a person of sin. If a person feels no Holy Spirit conviction, perhaps that person needs to "examine themselves" (2 Cor. 13:5).

Doesn't God look at the intent, the motivation? IF a Christian has been blessed by Him to reach out to those in country/rock/hip hop for glory of god, who are we to judge that as unacceptable?

 

[12strings]

I appreciate your kind comments. I believe the style of music matters in a church worship service and that style should glorify the Lord and keep our focus on Him. In a nutshell, as the "Conclusion" of the following article states, "the message of the music must match the lyrics."

This is true, but how do we determine which music this is?

There are many styles of worldly music that preach a message that is contradictory to the Bible and therefore cannot be used in the service of a holy God.

-This Statement goes quite far, farther than either Old-Regular or you have gone thus far in this conversation...it does not simply refer to worship services, but says there are MANY styles that CANNOT BE USED IN THE SERVICE OF A HOLY GOD. This author is saying even outside of church, MANY music styles are simply inherently evil and cannot be used for any purpose that would serve God. I just wanted to point that out, and also point out that he does not define exactly what determines whether a music style "preaches a message Contradictory to the bible."

Especially when, like Old Reg, things like jazz are thrown in...Are we really prepared to say to a new believer who is playing Augmented 5th chords and 5/8 rhythms on the piano, that not only is such music not useful in a public worship service, but that it IN AND OF ITSELF "preaches a message contrary to the bible"? How does that make any sense.

“I am now convinced that God will not accept our worship when it is offered with music styles that are also used by pagans for their immoral practices. If I am wrong, why was He so harsh in judging Israel when they sacrificed to Him using the pagan high places and rituals? He is a jealous God. If you grasp this principle alone, it will change for ever the way you lead a worship service. … The true heart of worship is the heart that bows before God and submits to his Word, no more and no less” (Dan Lucarini, Confessions of a Former Worship Leader, p. 57).

1. My years at college studying music overlapped one year with Dan Lucarini's daughter...I have read Dan's book and found it unconvincing because even he, with musical training, does not and cannot say what musically determines whether a music is good or bad.

2. He seems to think that a better music style equals more acceptance with God, and so (though I don't think this is his intent) would try to make music do what only Christ's mediating Blood can do.

3. "...Submits to the Word, no more and no less" Dan should take his own advice here, and not ADD restrictions to people that the Word of God does not add. One big reason I feel strongly about this issue is that I believe it is a threat to the doctrine of the sufficiency of scripture, part of which is the idea that we do not have the liberty to tell another person that something is a sin, when it is not clearly put forth in the bible as a sin. I cannot simply go around saying, "Drums are sinful, playing cards are sinful, pants on women are sinful, preaching without a tie is sinful." There may be good reasons to abstain or partake of certain things, but The bible simply doesn't address them.