OldRegular
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2 Services of Different Styles?
- Thread starter 12strings
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let me translate it for your benefit!
Doesn't the Lord save and use Christians in varying styles of music, rock/country/church etc?
that he does NOT expect all saved singers and musicians to stop playingin their fields, and sing in church only?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
God saves the Elect. If they happen to make noise and call it music, okay. I am simply saying that noise is not appropriate in a worship service.
Now I shower, shave, brush my teeth, eat, sleep, snore. But those things are not appropriate in a worship service.
Alive in Christ
New Member
EDIT....Unintentional duplicate.
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USN2Pulpit
New Member
So much of what people say is "appropriate" for worship has to do with their own preferences, it seems. There are many that would say a rock style is inappropriate, but have no problem with bluegrass or country & western.
We know that bluegrass and country & western is inappropriate because you can't pull that off with just a piano and an organ! :smilewinkgrin:
We know that bluegrass and country & western is inappropriate because you can't pull that off with just a piano and an organ! :smilewinkgrin:
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
The problem is that we all love to use the phrase "God looks on the heart", but we often forget that the rest of the phrase is "Man looks on the outward appearance". What is appropriate for private worship (God looking on the heart) might not be appropriate for public worship (Man looks on the outside).
Even though we might be able to worship God in many different ways, we are failing the great commission if we turn people away from God, or confuse them by sending a mixed message. This is why I think a lot that might be ok, is not necessarily prudent.
Even though we might be able to worship God in many different ways, we are failing the great commission if we turn people away from God, or confuse them by sending a mixed message. This is why I think a lot that might be ok, is not necessarily prudent.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The Apostle Paul makes a similar point in his discussion of speaking in unknown tongues in 1 Corinthian 14!
So where in scriptures is does it tell us what kind of music IS and IS NOT appropriate for public worship? I'll wait...
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Actually instrumental music is not mentioned in the Apostle Paul's recitation of a proper worship service [1 Corinthians 14] but he does say: Let all things be done unto edifying.
I may be wrong but I don't believe musical instruments are mentioned for worship in the New Testament. Again the Apostle Paul states in his sermon on Mars Hill:
Acts 17:24, 25
24. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25. Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Are musical instruments made with men's hands and played with men's hands?
So! I don't know if people can sing the pagan beat of rock, heavy metal, death metal, or rap without drums, stringed instruments, and such or not. The larger question is: Does such noise edify, and who?
1. No instruments in the New Testament...true, but there are instruments in the Old Testament, and God liked them. they Glorified him and apparently edified the people in that they drew attention to his majesty. Has God changed? ALSO...There are no pews mentioned in the Bible, In fact no printed Bibles mentioned in the Bible. If everything not mentioned in the New Testament were forbidden in corporate worship, we would worship in homes only wearing robes without electricity.
2. God is not worshipped with men's hands...(a) the primary point here is obviously that nothing we make or give to God with our hands is something he needs. We can't bribe him or bargain with him. (b) Pews, Pulpits, are also made with hands, can we not use them to assist in our worship?
3. You keep saying Rock has a Pagan beat. Does Sousa's "Stars and Stripe forever also have a Pagan beat? What about Beethoven's symphonies...what's the difference?
4. "Does such noise Edify?" - Lots of instrments seemed to Edify people and bring their attention to the majesty and greatness of God in all the psalms... So the conclusion must be: "God likes Loud Cymbals"
I think classic Opera is "no good", but still appreciate their talents, and they can still glorify God!
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
That is fallable logic. We are talking about appropriate, not right or wrong. The Bible doesn't tell us where to draw the line while telling jokes, it doesn't tell us not to burp out loud at a funeral. There are a lot of things where the Bible doesn't tell us what is appropriate.
Using the logic you presented here, it is ok to be naked at home, so it must be ok to be naked in public.
This phrase, "Show me in the Bible" is used way too often on the BB. Sometimes the Bible isn't explicit in everything. Sometimes we must apply common sense.
Unfortunately, and unfairly, the world has expectations of us as church-goers. However, since they are the ones watching, they make the rules. If they think we are being worldly, then we are.
This is why I stay away from Christian Rap/Hip-Hop. (Plus, I don't like it.) Here's a good test: Listen to the soundtrack of a song without the lyricist singing or rapping. Does it sound like it's praising God? Or does it sound like an in-your-face I-don't-care-who-you-are I-am-my-own-authority song?
Edited to Add: Now, since we are talking of appropriateness as determined by the world; there might be some things or music styles that are more appropriate than others depending on where you are located geographically. Inner city kids will have no expectations of Christianity musically. However, a country farmer would. As some have said before, it's a cultural thing. It goes along with the idea of not eating meat offered to idols if it is going to offend someone.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
#4. I would say that your conclusion #4 is incorrect!
#3. Some of Sousa's music is not appropriate for congregational worship. I have not heard all so cannot comment further.
#2. There is a big difference between use of musical instruments and sitting in chairs in worship.
#1. You mistakenly state:
The Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 is talking about corporate worship.
1 Corinthians 14:26. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
I would further commend Sapper Woody's post above, His comments are very perceptive for one I assume is very young!
well, if one ever attending a Black baptist church, would have seen in worship whole lotta shaking going on!
I can see that you disagree with me form this post, but I don't really see any reasons why.
Sapper Woody does raise some interesting points, but even he agrees that the difference is cultural, not mandated in scripture... You could use different music in an inner city than you might out in farm country...
I'm not saying we don't use discretion, I'm simply questioning the wholesale rejection of a certain type of music of instrument, as if using a piano, guitar, or drum in church is clearly unbiblical...You have not shown that it is.
1. I actually didn't make any logical propositions, simply asked a question about what the Bible says is appropriate (my words...not "right and wrong").
2. It seems that you agree with me for the most part based on your last paragraph...what exactly do you disagree with me about?
3. I would actually question the premise that the world decides when we are being worldly. Now we must keep in mind paul's instructions about not making the weaker brother stumble, and becoming all things to all people...BUT that does not mean the world determines what churches do in their corporate worship services.
-We have had visitors visit our church (in which musical worship is accompanied by acoustic guitar, Bass guitar, piano, & drum set) and some commented on how "traditional" we were, and how they liked that. Other's said we were "rockin." If We changed the music every time someone made a comment about it, We would be very unstable.
Does the bible state anywhere though that God only likes hymns sung, slow tempo, no fast tempo beats?
Has anyone noticed the subtle change from what is right or wrong to what is "appropriate". The anti-music crowd cannot support their position with Scripture that speaks DIRECTLY to their doctrine. Therefore, they speak in terms of personal opinion. Where are the Scriptural commands, references, & examples of the classification of "christian" music. It does not exist.
A key fallacy in this debate is the belief that there is an unwritten, but Biblical, set of rules governing how we are to worship God when gathered together. Under the New Covenant, every believer is free to worship God in the way that he/she deems appropriate. The "anti-" crowd is constantly trying to bring us back under an old law covenant form of Christianity, where religious rules are to govern every aspect of the Christian life. This is an offense to the very nature of our position in Christ under the New Covenant. I've never seen in Scripture where we should have cookie cutter congregations that all act, look & sound the same when "worshiping" God. Where does Scripture say that we have to worship Him with three dry hymns & a sermon? That's not worship, that's dead religion.
A key fallacy in this debate is the belief that there is an unwritten, but Biblical, set of rules governing how we are to worship God when gathered together. Under the New Covenant, every believer is free to worship God in the way that he/she deems appropriate. The "anti-" crowd is constantly trying to bring us back under an old law covenant form of Christianity, where religious rules are to govern every aspect of the Christian life. This is an offense to the very nature of our position in Christ under the New Covenant. I've never seen in Scripture where we should have cookie cutter congregations that all act, look & sound the same when "worshiping" God. Where does Scripture say that we have to worship Him with three dry hymns & a sermon? That's not worship, that's dead religion.
The scripture clearly says to avoid even the very appearance of evil.
So if I am ministering to someone caught up in the country honkytonk scene, I don't want to take them to a church where only the words are changed. Too much baggage.
And if I am ministering to someone coming out of a pagan religion (like my time among the Navajo) I don't want to use music that has meaning for usage in that pagan religion.
If I am ministering to a gangbanger, I won't use rap or hip hop as it encourages them that nothing has to change in their lives except getting stamped "on the way to heaven."
So yes, we have scripture.
Some of us misuse it to the point of legalism.
Some of us misuse to the point of bringing polluting paganism into the worship of the church.
And we could all quit fighting and use common sense
So if I am ministering to someone caught up in the country honkytonk scene, I don't want to take them to a church where only the words are changed. Too much baggage.
And if I am ministering to someone coming out of a pagan religion (like my time among the Navajo) I don't want to use music that has meaning for usage in that pagan religion.
If I am ministering to a gangbanger, I won't use rap or hip hop as it encourages them that nothing has to change in their lives except getting stamped "on the way to heaven."
So yes, we have scripture.
Some of us misuse it to the point of legalism.
Some of us misuse to the point of bringing polluting paganism into the worship of the church.
And we could all quit fighting and use common sense
The scripture clearly says to avoid even the very appearance of evil.
So if I am ministering to someone caught up in the country honkytonk scene, I don't want to take them to a church where only the words are changed. Too much baggage.
And if I am ministering to someone coming out of a pagan religion (like my time among the Navajo) I don't want to use music that has meaning for usage in that pagan religion.
If I am ministering to a gangbanger, I won't use rap or hip hop as it encourages them that nothing has to change in their lives except getting stamped "on the way to heaven."
So yes, we have scripture.
Some of us misuse it to the point of legalism.
Some of us misuse to the point of bringing polluting paganism into the worship of the church.
And we could all quit fighting and use common sense
All too often, the "appearance of evil" passage is misused to impose one's own personal views on the Body. I could just as easily say, and with more Biblical support, that pharisaistic legalism is a greater appearance of evil. Christ openly rebuked & condemned the pharisees of His day for imposing their own law beyond the clear teachings of Scripture. Therefore, we should avoid the appearance of evil by not adding our own laws & rules to Scripture.
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