Nobody is denying the Word of God. This is a translation issue not a denial issue. To suggest that one is denying scripture simply because they see it differently is just unnecessary demonization for the purpose in making someone look bad. Let's act like adults here and be respectful.
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Jesus/God in Hell?
- Thread starter billwald
- Start date
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Adam Clarke's Commentary:
By which - Spirit, his own Divine energy and authority.
He went and preached - By the ministry of Noah, one hundred and twenty years.
Unto the spirits in prison - The inhabitants of the antediluvian world, who, having been disobedient, and convicted of the most flagrant transgressions against God, were sentenced by his just law to destruction. But their punishment was delayed to see if they would repent; and the long-suffering of God waited one hundred and twenty years, which were granted to them for this purpose; during which time, as criminals tried and convicted, they are represented as being in prison - detained under the arrest of Divine justice, which waited either for their repentance or the expiration of the respite, that the punishment pronounced might be inflicted. This I have long believed to be the sense of this difficult passage, and no other that I have seen is so consistent with the whole scope of the place. That the Spirit of God did strive with, convict, and reprove the antediluvians, is evident from Ge 6:3 : My Spirit shall not always strive with man, forasmuch as he is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years. And it was by this Spirit that Noah became a preacher of righteousness, and condemned that ungodly world, Heb 11:7, who would not believe till wrath - Divine punishment, came upon them to the uttermost. The word πνευμασι , spirits, is supposed to render this view of the subject improbable, because this must mean disembodied spirits; but this certainly does not follow, for the spirits of just men made perfect, Heb 12:23, certainly means righteous men, and men still in the Church militant; and the Father of spirits, Heb 12:9, means men still in the body; and the God of the spirits of all flesh, Nu 16:22; 27:16, means men not in a disembodied state.
By which - Spirit, his own Divine energy and authority.
He went and preached - By the ministry of Noah, one hundred and twenty years.
Unto the spirits in prison - The inhabitants of the antediluvian world, who, having been disobedient, and convicted of the most flagrant transgressions against God, were sentenced by his just law to destruction. But their punishment was delayed to see if they would repent; and the long-suffering of God waited one hundred and twenty years, which were granted to them for this purpose; during which time, as criminals tried and convicted, they are represented as being in prison - detained under the arrest of Divine justice, which waited either for their repentance or the expiration of the respite, that the punishment pronounced might be inflicted. This I have long believed to be the sense of this difficult passage, and no other that I have seen is so consistent with the whole scope of the place. That the Spirit of God did strive with, convict, and reprove the antediluvians, is evident from Ge 6:3 : My Spirit shall not always strive with man, forasmuch as he is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years. And it was by this Spirit that Noah became a preacher of righteousness, and condemned that ungodly world, Heb 11:7, who would not believe till wrath - Divine punishment, came upon them to the uttermost. The word πνευμασι , spirits, is supposed to render this view of the subject improbable, because this must mean disembodied spirits; but this certainly does not follow, for the spirits of just men made perfect, Heb 12:23, certainly means righteous men, and men still in the Church militant; and the Father of spirits, Heb 12:9, means men still in the body; and the God of the spirits of all flesh, Nu 16:22; 27:16, means men not in a disembodied state.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
John Wesley's Notes on the Bible
1 Peter 3:19
Verse 19. By which Spirit he preached - Through the ministry of Noah. To the spirits in prison - The unholy men before the flood, who were then reserved by the justice of God, as in a prison, till he executed the sentence upon them all; and are now also reserved to the judgment of the great day.
1 Peter 3:19
Verse 19. By which Spirit he preached - Through the ministry of Noah. To the spirits in prison - The unholy men before the flood, who were then reserved by the justice of God, as in a prison, till he executed the sentence upon them all; and are now also reserved to the judgment of the great day.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
Nobody is denying the Word of God. This is a translation issue not a denial issue. To suggest that one is denying scripture simply because they see it differently is just unnecessary demonization for the purpose in making someone look bad. Let's act like adults here and be respectful.
Once again it was Fred who started it by accusing Moriah of denying the Word of God. I was giving him back some of his own medicine.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Matthew Henry Commentary:
* * * 1. For the explication of this we may notice, (1.) The preacher--Christ Jesus, who has interested himself in the affairs of the church and of the world ever since he was first promised to Adam, Ge 3:15. He went, not by a local motion, but by special operation, as God is frequently said to move, Ge 11:5; Ho 5:15; Mic 1:3. He went and preached, by his Spirit striving with them, and inspiring and enabling Enoch and Noah to plead with them, and preach righteousness to them, as 2Pe 2:5. (2.) The hearers. Because they were dead and disembodied when the apostle speaks of them, therefore he properly calls them spirits now in prison; not that they were in prison when Christ preached to them, as the vulgar Latin translation and the popish expositors pretend. (3.) The sin of these people: They were disobedient, that is, rebellious, unpersuadable, and unbelieving, as the word signifies; this their sin is aggravated from the patience and long-suffering of God (which once waited upon them for 120 years together), while Noah was preparing the ark, and by that, as well as by his preaching, giving them fair warning of what was coming upon them. (4.) The event of all: Their bodies were drowned, and their spirits cast into hell, which is called a prison (Mt 5:25; 2Pe 2:4-5); but Noah and his family, who believed and were obedient, were saved in the ark.
* * * 1. For the explication of this we may notice, (1.) The preacher--Christ Jesus, who has interested himself in the affairs of the church and of the world ever since he was first promised to Adam, Ge 3:15. He went, not by a local motion, but by special operation, as God is frequently said to move, Ge 11:5; Ho 5:15; Mic 1:3. He went and preached, by his Spirit striving with them, and inspiring and enabling Enoch and Noah to plead with them, and preach righteousness to them, as 2Pe 2:5. (2.) The hearers. Because they were dead and disembodied when the apostle speaks of them, therefore he properly calls them spirits now in prison; not that they were in prison when Christ preached to them, as the vulgar Latin translation and the popish expositors pretend. (3.) The sin of these people: They were disobedient, that is, rebellious, unpersuadable, and unbelieving, as the word signifies; this their sin is aggravated from the patience and long-suffering of God (which once waited upon them for 120 years together), while Noah was preparing the ark, and by that, as well as by his preaching, giving them fair warning of what was coming upon them. (4.) The event of all: Their bodies were drowned, and their spirits cast into hell, which is called a prison (Mt 5:25; 2Pe 2:4-5); but Noah and his family, who believed and were obedient, were saved in the ark.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Matthew Poole's Commentary on the Holy Bible
1 Peter 3:20
Ver. 20. Which; which spirits in prison.
Question. When were these spirits, to whom Christ preached by Noah, in prison?
Answer. Then when Peter wrote this Epistle. The Greek participle of the present tense is here to be supplied, and the word thus read, preached to the spirits which are in prison, viz. now at this time; and so the time of their being in prison is opposed to the time of their being disobedient; their disobedience going before their imprisonment; q.d. They were disobedient then, they are in prison now.
Sometime; viz. in the days of Noah, when they were upon earth.
Were disobedient; would not believe what Noah told them in God's name, nor be brought to repentance by his preaching.
When once; not always, but for a determinate time, viz. one hundred and twenty years; which term being expired, there was no hope left for them that they should be spared.
The long-suffering of God; i.e. God in his patience and long-suffering.
Waited; for the repentance and reformation of that rebellious generation.
In the days of Noah; till the one hundred and twenty years were run out, and the ark, which was preparing for the security of him and his family, were finished.
Eight souls; i.e. eight persons, Noah, and his wife, his three sons, and their wives.
Were saved by water; either:
1 Peter 3:20
Ver. 20. Which; which spirits in prison.
Question. When were these spirits, to whom Christ preached by Noah, in prison?
Answer. Then when Peter wrote this Epistle. The Greek participle of the present tense is here to be supplied, and the word thus read, preached to the spirits which are in prison, viz. now at this time; and so the time of their being in prison is opposed to the time of their being disobedient; their disobedience going before their imprisonment; q.d. They were disobedient then, they are in prison now.
Sometime; viz. in the days of Noah, when they were upon earth.
Were disobedient; would not believe what Noah told them in God's name, nor be brought to repentance by his preaching.
When once; not always, but for a determinate time, viz. one hundred and twenty years; which term being expired, there was no hope left for them that they should be spared.
The long-suffering of God; i.e. God in his patience and long-suffering.
Waited; for the repentance and reformation of that rebellious generation.
In the days of Noah; till the one hundred and twenty years were run out, and the ark, which was preparing for the security of him and his family, were finished.
Eight souls; i.e. eight persons, Noah, and his wife, his three sons, and their wives.
Were saved by water; either:
Michael Wrenn
New Member
Keep dragging them out.
Verse 18 clearly shows the context of the passage to be the death of Jesus for people's sins. It is after His death that He went and preached to the spirits in prison. Thus, Fred's interpretation is untenable.
Verse 18 clearly shows the context of the passage to be the death of Jesus for people's sins. It is after His death that He went and preached to the spirits in prison. Thus, Fred's interpretation is untenable.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Verse 19 clearly shows that is was only the antediluvians who were preached to by Jesus, no one else.
Thus, the archbishop's interpretation is unsound.
Thus, the archbishop's interpretation is unsound.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
The context of verse 18 and the construct of verse 19 shows that Jesus preached to the spirits after His death -- whomever it was He preached to.
And since that is the plain sense of the passage, I don't need to bolster it by dragging out a bunch of theologians -- alive and dead -- to back it up.
I must go grade some papers now. Will be gone for a while. Will probably pull an all-nighter.
And since that is the plain sense of the passage, I don't need to bolster it by dragging out a bunch of theologians -- alive and dead -- to back it up.
I must go grade some papers now. Will be gone for a while. Will probably pull an all-nighter.
The context of verse 18 and the construct of verse 19 shows that Jesus preached to the spirits after His death -- whomever it was He preached to.
And since that is the plain sense of the passage, I don't need to bolster it by dragging out a bunch of theologians -- alive and dead -- to back it up.
I must go grade some papers now. Will be gone for a while. Will probably pull an all-nighter.
Steadfast Fred got a bunch of teachers that say what his itching ears wanted to hear.
Where in the crazy world did you ever get this?
2Pe_2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Noah was “Preacher of righteousness” does not mean Jesus preached the gospel to people while the ark was being made. The gospel was preached when Jesus came to earth as a man.
1 Peter 1:12 t was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Moriah got Michael Wrenn to say what his itching ears wanted to hear.
Michael Wrenn got Moriah to say what his itching ears wanted to hear.
Michael Wrenn got Moriah to say what his itching ears wanted to hear.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
Last edited by a moderator:
What is nonsensical is someone beleiving "while the ark was a preparing" actually means "up to the time of the crucifixion of Christ.
What is equally nonsensical is the claim that people can be saved after dying without knowing Christ.
Could also, using this "proof texting" style to show that water baptism saves us, per Acts and peter!
he needs to see that one CANNOT take a single isolated passage to over turn the rest of scriptures regarding a doctrine, as it is manifestly clear that one MUST be saved in this life, no second chance!
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Sadly, many take one or two verses and make doctrines out of them that do not line up with the rest of Scripture.Could also, using this "proof texting" style to show that water baptism saves us, per Acts and peter!
he needs to see that one CANNOT take a single isolated passage to over turn the rest of scriptures regarding a doctrine, as it is manifestly clear that one MUST be saved in this life, no second chance!
To say that one can be saved after being cast into hell is an insult to God's Holy character. He has determined that the only way one can be saved is by placing one's faith in His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. To try to enter in by any other way than the Door will only result in falling into hell, where there is no escape.
The rich man of Luke 16 learned the reality of God's justice, how that he would remain in torment for eternity.
Man is given enough witness of God's existence in nature according to Romans 1. Romans 1 reveals that those who sought to please the flesh rather than seeking to serve God were condemned and that with no hope of mercy. The same fate will befall all who attempt to enter God's eternal kingdom without placing their faith in Christ Jesus.
And that faith must be placed in Him this side of the grave.
Who thinks that? That does not even make sense.What is nonsensical is someone beleiving "while the ark was a preparing" actually means "up to the time of the crucifixion of Christ.
Who said that people could be saved after dying without knowing Christ?What is equally nonsensical is the claim that people can be saved after dying without knowing Christ.
The spirits that Jesus preached the gospel to were learning of Jesus there. That is scripture.
he needs to see that one CANNOT take a single isolated passage to over turn the rest of scriptures regarding a doctrine,
You need to see that we have not done what you claim.
as it is manifestly clear that one MUST be saved in this life, no second chance!
I gave you scripture that plainly says after Jesus DIED he went to prison where the spirits of those who died long ago were, Jesus preached the gospel to them, so they could live according to God in the spirit.
That should show you that God considers whether someone has heard of Jesus and the true gospel or not.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
We showed you your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:18-20 is not correct. It does not say Jesus preached to every person who lived before the cross. Those who were preached to were those who were sometimes disobedient during the time the ark was preparing.
1 Peter 3:18 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
The one who dies condemned has only judgment in His future, not mercy.
1 Peter 3:18 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
The one who dies condemned has only judgment in His future, not mercy.
That is not what I have done.Sadly, many take one or two verses and make doctrines out of them that do not line up with the rest of Scripture.
People are saved AFTER learning of Jesus and the true gospel.To say that one can be saved after being cast into hell is an insult to God's Holy character.
How do you ever get that anyone here ever said one could try to enter heaven by another way than Jesus?He has determined that the only way one can be saved is by placing one's faith in His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. To try to enter in by any other way than the Door will only result in falling into hell, where there is no escape.
Prison/Hell is a holding place before the great white throne judgment, before people will be thrown in the lake of fire for eternity.The rich man of Luke 16 learned the reality of God's justice, how that he would remain in torment for eternity.
NOT everyone lives a sinful life as those in Romans 1, which you speak. Some people live their lives being a faithful spouse, raising their kids, working, and living their life without any of the sinful wickedness spoken of in Romans 1.Man is given enough witness of God's existence in nature according to Romans 1. Romans 1 reveals that those who sought to please the flesh rather than seeking to serve God were condemned and that with no hope of mercy. The same fate will befall all who attempt to enter God's eternal kingdom without placing their faith in Christ Jesus.
Jesus shows you in 1 Peter 3, 4, and Ephesians 4 that people were able to put faith in him on the other side of the grave.And that faith must be placed in Him this side of the grave.