Featured No Man Can Come Unto Me, Except [John 6:65]

Mat 23:37 Free will
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!


Acts 13:48(KJV) ---Election
"And when the Gentiles heard this [the Gospel], they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."


Both are taught and both are true.

 

That is a calvinist statement. Man can not come to Jesus. You have just agreed to the premise of Total Depravity. And yes we too agree that man can believe., but only when God draws a man. IF belief gives you life, then obviously if man can not come as you have said, then obviously man can not believe. Follow to your logical conclusion.

 

1Cor 14:28
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Mark 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Mat 23:37 Free will
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Acts 13:48(KJV) ---Election
"And when the Gentiles heard this [the Gospel], they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
Both are taught and both are true.

 

We provide as much scripture as you do to support our view, maybe more.

When Jesus said a man cannot come unless drawn, we simply understand it differently. You understand this to say unless a man is regenerated he cannot come. But it says no such thing or even hints at that.

I see it like the marriage parable in Matthew 22. Unless a man were called and invited to the wedding, he could not possibly come. But that does not mean a person who was invited needs to be supernaturally regenerated to obey and come, in fact the text shows many men obeyed and came and never mentions a word about them being regenerated to be able to do so.

So, you read Total Inability into everything. You assume this doctrine is true, and then interpret scripture to agree with your presupposition. My argument is that Total Inability is not true, men are able to choose whether to obey or not. They do not have to be regenerated to obey, but they must be called to obey.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

You cannot handle scripture like Isa 7:16, because it clearly shows even a child at some point will mature to be knowledgeable enough to REFUSE EVIL AND CHOOSE GOOD. But that is what scripture says whether you like it or not.

The scriptures do not teach Total Inability, they teach that man can refuse evil and choose good.

If you ever get this, your system will fall like the house of cards it is.

 

That does not help you, because the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus had the same human nature as his brethren the seed of Abraham, that he was made like unto his brethren in ALL THINGS. So if Jesus had the ability to refuse evil and choose good, then all men do.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

You probably do not realize it, but if you deny that Jesus had a human nature, then you have denied he came in the flesh. The scriptures warn against this false doctrine.

1 Jhn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Everyone that confesses Jesus is come in the flesh is of God. Those who say Jesus did not come in the flesh are of the spirit of antichrist.

Jesus had the same exact nature as all men. He was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

If Jesus could refuse evil and choose good, then so can we, we have the same nature as Jesus, we are flesh.

 

First, I don't care what men wrote, I believe the scriptures. Second there are more verses than Isa 7:16 that show men have the ability to choose for God and you know it.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Moses was speaking to several million Jews here, so it would be ridiculous to believe every single man, woman, and child was regenerate, and he told them to choose either life or death. This would be nonsensical if your view is correct.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Joshua was also speaking to several million Jews here, so they certainly were not all regenerated, and he told them to choose who they would serve.

Now, anybody in the world except a Calvinist would easily see that both Moses and Joshua believed men could refuse evil and choose good. And I am sure both Moses and Joshua understood doctrine better than John Calvin.

Believe whatever you want. But do not say I do not have scripture to support my view, I clearly do. You must deny or twist scripture like Deu 30:19 and Jos 24:15 to fit your system, I understand it literally without need to wrestle scripture to fit mine.

There is really no need to continue, we will have to agree to disagree.

 

This doesn't teach free will. :ye would not" is simply a rejection. Nobody here would say that nobody will reject Jesus. There are thousands in hell that have rejected Jesus.

Yes, man has a will and God is in control of all things and all things will work out in the end exactly as God wants them to. How he works that out I do not know.

 

We do choose God, but only because he has chosen us. Only because he has drawn us to him. Only because he has convicted us. We need to be careful not to go too far in discussions. So yes, we can find man choosing God, but that's not simply because man decided on day to choose God, but because God choose him. Otherwise, man would choose self.

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

What we cannot know in all this is just how many God chooses to save.

On the one hand we are warned the path is narrow and hard and few there be that find it.

On the other hand we are told of a great sea of witnesses, worshippers, and that in Abraham all families of the earth are blessed and his offspring as numerous and the grains of sand. We are also told not all his physical offspring are really his offspring, but those that are "circumcised in heart". Many see that as replacement theology and count the Christians among the numberless mass.

But in the mean time, while we are both warned no one can come except the Father draw him, and promised the Son will draw all to Himself, we have a job to do in getting out the gospel.

And we can safely leave to God's good care those things He just did not tell us.

 

I believe it does teach free will. God wanted them and they rejected. That is free will.
Here is a definition
Free will is the ability of a person to make a choice free from coercion based on the evidence they have and personal choice.

If you have another understanding then please feel free to state it.

Sovereign election is that decree of God by which He chooses a definite number of individuals to salvation and glory. God is not uncertain of who will be saved and will spend eternity with Him in heaven. He knows each of His people by name, since He has chosen each of them; and those names He has recorded in the Book of Life.

To be clear I hold to both sovereign election and man's free will. I simply cannot figure out how they work together, but this is where faith is applied.

 

2Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
God choosing us first does not negate man's free will choice. All men are under the call. Some reject from free will.

 

We agree, but why do you all insist God's choosing must be effectual in order make this claim?