No Man Can Come Unto Me, Except [John 6:65]

[richardetyler]

No, God cannot sin. He cannot force a person against their will, just as God cannot lie, because that is a sin.

Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

This might rock your world, but here is something that is impossible with God, he cannot lie. God cannot sin or he would cease to be God, for God is HOLY.



I deny your definition of what sovereignty is. I do not believe God can sin. I do not believe God can force or compel any man to believe, as that would be sin. If you kidnap a girl off the street and assault her, that is a sin because you have forced her and compelled her against her will.

But Calvinists believe otherwise, R. C. Sproul wrote of the "holy rape of the soul" in one of his books. He believes it is ok for God to force someone against their will. And don't give me this doubletalk of yours about God making men willing, in your view, up until he makes them willing, they were completely unwilling. It is force and coercion.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

The devil is the one who forces people, not God.

So if someone was to pull a gun and shoot a child, and I was to step in and stop him, that would be a sin because I forced him?

 

[psalms109:31]

God created all man and His angels with a free agency if He didn't they would all be doing the will of God. There is nothing God can't do, but He does not sin, it is against His will that our will is against His. When the fall happened the flesh cannot do anything it is dead toward life, but the free agency is still there that can go against their own will that leads to death and follow the will of God that leads to life. It can only be the word of God, the words of life that can motivate it.

If you have ever quite smoking or drinking you can understand that our will doesn't care about us and us living. What does is our conscience and the free agency that was motivated by an outside source to quite it.

When someone can't understand something they go to pet saying instead of admitting the scripture is right and they are wrong. They don't understand how they work, but both are true. They want to be known as Spiritual, so they will go to anyone's answer so they continue in what they believe.

Sovereignty of God and man's free agency is true men our responsible for their own action, by given them over to their own evil desires. God did not give them that evil desire.

So God is not sovereign to the fact God did not give them that evil desire, so God is not sovereign to a point in which man say's He is.

Ezekiel 18 :
23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

2 Peter 3:
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:
2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying —and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

 

[OldRegular]

I do not believe God can force men to believe against their will.

Another point where you do not understand the Doctrines of Grace. God does not force men to believe against their will. He changes their will. That is what the New Birth or regeneration does! The following Scripture seems to be applicable to those who deny the truth that Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. [Hebrews 12:2]

2 Timothy 3:7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Winman]

winman, you are not answering the question but diverting. I'll just assume you don't believe God has the power and therefore don't believe in the sovereignty of God.

I'll ask again before just assuming you deny the sovereignty(there are not multiple definitions of sovereignty) of God and God's omnipotence.

"Does God have the power to irresistibly cause any man to have faith whenever he chooses."

Yes or no?

I'm not asking if God wants to do that or if he does do that, but if God is sovereign over the hearts of man. Simple question if you are willing to answer it.

I answered you directly, I said I did not believe God can force a person to believe against their will. How plain can I answer you?

 

[OldRegular]

Nice try at deflection but no gold ring for you.

I am not trying to deflect anything. I am trying to show you and freeatlast how silly it is to use Scripture concerning faith without indicating whether God is talking about believers or unbelievers. You would have people believe that you have been a perfectly obedient child of God since you were saved.

 

[jbh28]

I answered you directly, I said I did not believe God can force a person to believe against their will. How plain can I answer you?

So God lacks the ability and is not sovereign over man. Thanks for admitting it.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Winman...

You posted...

Nice try at deflection but no gold ring for you.

If the only way any person can believe is if God must regenerate them and give them faith, it is not only nonsensical, but utterly unjust for God to be angry at people for unbelief. You know that as well as I do, or at least you once did until you found some way to twist your own mind's logic and rationalize this away.

Yep, You hit the bulls eye.

I just stuns the mind regarding the pure ridiculousness that hard core calvinists are forced to adhere to in order to keep thier error filled sand castle afloat.

 

[Winman]

So if someone was to pull a gun and shoot a child, and I was to step in and stop him, that would be a sin because I forced him?

Of course not, it is not wrong to stop someone from harming another person.

But if you grab a girl off the street and force her against her will, that is wrong.

God does not force a person to believe, he PERSUADES.

Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Note that Abraham said "persuaded".

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Note that Paul persuaded the Jews and Greeks.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

This is the famous chapter about faith in the Bible. Note it says believers were persuaded, not forced.

To persuade someone and to force someone are not the same thing. To persuade someone means to convince them, but the person makes up their own mind. To force someone means to give them no choice in the matter.

The scriptures NEVER say we are forced to believe, they say we are persuaded.

 

[Winman]

Winman...

You posted...

Yep, You hit the bulls eye.

I just stuns the mind regarding the pure ridiculousness that hard core calvinists are forced to adhere to in order to keep thier error filled sand castle afloat.

Yep, it's a house of cards. They know as well as we do that no person can be forced against their will to believe. God does not ZAP people to believe, he PERSUADES them.

Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

2 Tim 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

It is certain these Calvinists cannot be persuaded.

 

[freeatlast]

Another point where you do not understand the Doctrines of Grace. God does not force men to believe against their will. He changes their will. That is what the New Birth or regeneration does! The following Scripture seems to be applicable to those who deny the truth that Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. [Hebrews 12:2]

2 Timothy 3:7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God's election and man's fee will working together unto salvation.

 

[Winman]

Another point where you do not understand the Doctrines of Grace. God does not force men to believe against their will. He changes their will. That is what the New Birth or regeneration does! The following Scripture seems to be applicable to those who deny the truth that Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. [Hebrews 12:2]

2 Timothy 3:7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

This is a contradiction. If natural men hate God and do not want to come to God, then if God changes their will he has done so against their will.

This is the typical nonsensical and illogical arguments you get from Calvinists. You have to be educated (brainwashed) to think like this, no person with a lick of common sense would ever believe direct contradictions to be truth.

 

[OldRegular]

Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

2 Tim 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Winman; You made a poor choice of Scripture to prove that unregenerate man can of his own free will believe in God to salvation. The I in the above Scripture was the Apostle Paul, not Saul trhe persecutor of the Church. God does persuade those who have been born again, saved. [2 Timothy 1:12] God loves but also chastens His children who are disobedient. In fact He tells us that if we are without chastening then we are bastards and not sons.

Hebrews 12:6-8
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[Winman]

So God lacks the ability and is not sovereign over man. Thanks for admitting it.

You are welcome, I have no problem disagreeing with your error.

Mar 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

 

[OldRegular]

This is a contradiction. If natural men hate God and do not want to come to God, then if God changes their will he has done so against their will.

Ain't it the truth.:laugh::godisgood: I for one am glad He changed my will and made me desire Him, contradiction or not. I am even glad He changed your will even if you are ignorant of that truth.

God will bring His elect to Salvation in Jesus Christ and that is a fact.:godisgood: There are many who give God all Glory. There are others who reserve a little glory for themselves.:BangHead:

 

[OldRegular]

You are welcome, I have no problem disagreeing with your error.

You also seem to have no problem disagreeing with Scripture.:tear::BangHead: But :godisgood::laugh:.

 

[jbh28]

You also seem to have no problem disagreeing with Scripture.:tear::BangHead: But :godisgood::laugh:.

It's sad indeed. winman would rather deny the Bible than admit is argument had a false premise.

 

[Winman]

Winman; You made a poor choice of Scripture to prove that unregenerate man can of his own free will believe in God to salvation. The I in the above Scripture was the Apostle Paul, not Saul trhe persecutor of the Church. God does persuade those who have been born again, saved. [2 Timothy 1:12] God loves but also chastens His children who are disobedient. In fact He tells us that if we are without chastening then we are bastards and not sons.

Hebrews 12:6-8
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Pathetic, you Calvinists have a way to explain away all scripture.

2 Cor 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

This is also Paul speaking, and he says we persuade MEN. He did not say brethren, or the elect, he simply said MEN, meaning all men.

Calvinism depends on redefining words. The world becomes "the elect", all becomes "the elect" and persuade becomes "regenerated".

You guys should really write your own dictionary so folks could communicate meaningfully with you. You guys have your own definitions for words that no one else holds to.

Of course, you have twist the definitions of words to make your system work.

 

[Winman]

Winman; You made a poor choice of Scripture to prove that unregenerate man can of his own free will believe in God to salvation. The I in the above Scripture was the Apostle Paul, not Saul trhe persecutor of the Church. God does persuade those who have been born again, saved. [2 Timothy 1:12] God loves but also chastens His children who are disobedient. In fact He tells us that if we are without chastening then we are bastards and not sons.

Hebrews 12:6-8
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

You absolutely err to say men do not have free will and cannot believe in God.

Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

Here God said ANY MAN could worship the Lord by bringing an offering. Every man was to do it of HIS OWN VOLUNTARY WILL, proving all men have free will.

And God himself said this offering would be ACCEPTED to make ATONEMENT for him.

This proves any man can come in faith of his own free will, unless you think a person obtains atonement through works.

No, all men are justified through faith, so these men had faith.

It is not me that does not believe scripture.

 

[OldRegular]

Winman:

You have yet to address a single verse of Scripture presented in the OP. All you do is make childish comments about the stupidity and deviousness of those who believe the Doctrines of Grace, who believe that God is indeed the Author and Finisher of our Faith.

Man in his natural state is a child of wrath [Ephesians 2:3] and at emnity with God [Ephesians 2:15]. Though such men are convinced they have “free will” they do not,. They are in bondage to sin.[Romans 6:20] and are incapable of choosing or desiring God. This inherent inability of the person “dead in tresspass and sin”, called Total Inability or Total Depravity, is confirmed by the Apostle Paul in the following Scripture:

1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 3:11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Now consider words of Jesus Christ from the Gospel of John:

John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

In this one verse of Scripture we have a clear, concise statement of the inherent inability of the person “dead in tresspass and sin” to come of his own accord to Jesus Christ

Once the Doctrine of Total Inability [Depravity] is established logic indicates that the remaining points of TULIP are confirmed: Man is in bondage to sin and is incapable of choosing or desiring God, therefore, God must take the initiative. And He does!

 

[MorseOp]

I have never read one responsible Calvinist theologian claim that God saves people against their will. Dagg, Gill, Spurgeon, Piper, White, Martin, et. al. have never taught that God assaults man's will. God liberates man's will.