No Man Can Come Unto Me, Except [John 6:65]

[OldRegular]

Num 14:11And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

If God regenerates a man and causes him to have faith as you believe, then why would God be provoked because the children of Israel did not believe him? That makes no sense whatsoever, for if your doctrine is true then God would know they could not possibly believe, and God would also be able to instantly regenerate them and cause them to have faith if that is what he desired. And it is certain that he did desire them to believe.

This scripture is nonsensical if your view is correct.

So, you explain to me why God would be provoked for unbelief, knowing that only he can cause belief in your view.

Winman,

Do you really believe that all those redeemed by Jesus Christ are always obedient to the Holy Spirit. Much of letters in the New Testament is devoted to giving Christians instructions on Christian behavior. Consider Paul's instructions to the Church at Ephesus:

Ephesians 4:30-32
30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32. And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

 

[freeatlast]

Winman,

Do you really believe that all those redeemed by Jesus Christ are always obedient to the Holy Spirit. Much of letters in the New Testament is devoted to giving Christians instructions on Christian behavior. Consider Paul's instructions to the Church at Ephesus:

Ephesians 4:30-32
30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32. And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

You did not answer his question;
"So, you explain to me why God would be provoked for unbelief, knowing that only he can cause belief in your view."

 

[Winman]

Everyone makes out like it is some big mystery who God chose (elected) and why, when it is clearly shown in scripture. God chose those whom in his foreknowledge he knew would believe.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

If Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe on him, then he also knew from the beginning who would believe on him. This is confirmed in this same passage.

Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would not believe on him and would betray him (vs. 64). Jesus called Judas a devil. Therefore he also knew that the other 11 disciples would believe on him and would not betray him. He knew this when he CHOSE them.

Jesus chose Judas for the express purpose that he knew he would betray him and bring about God's purpose that Jesus would go to the cross and die for our sins. He chose the other 11 because he knew they would be believers and spread the gospel.

Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jesus chose his 11 disciples and later Paul to write the scriptures and spread the gospel. Jesus knew people would believe on him through their word.

Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

God chose the poor, because generally speaking it is the poor who are humble and trust in God, though they are poor in this material world, they are rich in faith.

1 Cor 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Why does everybody act like it is a mystery whom God has chosen and why? The scriptures are plain and simple, God has chosen the foolish people of the world, he has chosen the weak, he has chosen the base and despised to confound the mighty, the noble, and the wise, that no man may boast of himself.

The scriptures also teach us that we are elect according to the foreknowledge of the Father.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

This verse is clear that we are elect according to the foreknowledge of the Father, something he knew before it actually came to pass. And we have seen who he chooses and why, he chooses the poor, the weak, the despised and base people who are rich in faith. This is what God saw in his foreknowledge, and this is who God chose.

It is no mystery, we are plainly told in scripture.

Look how the Lord chose Gideon to deliver Israel;

Jud 6:14 And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?
15 And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.

Gideon was from a poor family, and he was the least in his house. But he had faith and obeyed the Lord. This is why he was chosen.

Amos is another example:

Amo 7:14 Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet's son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the LORD took me as I followed the flock, and the LORD said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.

Amos was not noble, wise, or mighty, he was an herdsman and a gatherer of fruit. But he believed in God and obeyed when God told him to prophesy. This is why Amos was chosen.

It is no mystery whom God chooses and why, it is plainly declared in scripture.

 

[Winman]

You did not answer his question;
"So, you explain to me why God would be provoked for unbelief, knowing that only he can cause belief in your view."

He won't answer, Calvinists never do. He knows this verse makes no sense whatsoever if his view is correct. Why would God be angry for unbelief if only God can cause belief?

That would be like a father being angry at his one year old child running around naked, when they have no ability to buy themselves clothes or clothe themselves. Pure nonsense.

You have to ignore multitudes of scripture to believe Calvinism.

 

[OldRegular]

He won't answer, Calvinists never do. He knows this verse makes no sense whatsoever if his view is correct. Why would God be angry for unbelief if only God can cause belief?

That would be like a father being angry at his one year old child running around naked, when they have no ability to buy themselves clothes or clothe themselves. Pure nonsense.

You have to ignore multitudes of scripture to believe Calvinism.

I am so glad there are at least two people in the Community of Believers who have never, never, never grieved the Holy Spirit since He graciously redeemed them; who have never, never, never sinned against God since He graciously redeemed them; who have always, always, always trusted God since He graciously redeemed them. If they were Roman Catholics these Saints would be candidates for Sainthood.

 

[Winman]

I am so glad there are at least two people in the Community of Believers who have never, never, never grieved the Holy Spirit since He graciously redeemed them; who have never, never, never sinned against God since He graciously redeemed them; who have always, always, always trusted God since He graciously redeemed them. If they were Roman Catholics these Saints would be candidates for Sainthood.

Nice try at deflection but no gold ring for you.

If the only way any person can believe is if God must regenerate them and give them faith, it is not only nonsensical, but utterly unjust for God to be angry at people for unbelief. You know that as well as I do, or at least you once did until you found some way to twist your own mind's logic and rationalize this away. I have read many Calvinists who have admitted they struggled with issues like this. They should have, it is nonsensical.

No one here is claiming to be sinless, certainly not me. This is simply an attempt to deflect away from the question you were asked.

I don't expect you to answer it, Calvinists never do.

 

[richardetyler]

Man in his natural state is a child of wrath [Ephesians 2:3] and at emnity with God [Ephesians 2:15]. Though such men are convinced they have “free will” they do not,. They are in bondage to sin.[Romans 6:20] and are incapable of choosing or desiring God. This inherent inability of the person “dead in tresspass and sin”, called Total Inability or Total Depravity, is confirmed by the Apostle Paul in the following Scripture:

1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 3:11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Now consider words of Jesus Christ from the Gospel of John:

John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

In this one verse of Scripture we have a clear, concise statement of the inherent inability of the person “dead in tresspass and sin” to come of his own accord to Jesus Christ

Once the Doctrine of Total Inability [Depravity] is established logic indicates that the remaining points of TULIP are confirmed: Man is in bondage to sin and is incapable of choosing or desiring God, therefore, God must take the initiative. And He does!

:thumbs: agreed!

 

[Iconoclast]

He won't answer, Calvinists never do.
Pure nonsense.

You have to ignore multitudes of scripture to believe Calvinism.

No....You just have to misunderstand everyone you post as you have here to make sure you do not welcome truth:thumbs:

OFF TOPIC-

Get well soon......Benjamin:laugh: Are you suffering from repetitive post syndrome??? that happens when you run out of things to say that would be helpful!

 

[richardetyler]

Num 14:11

So, you explain to me why God would be provoked for unbelief, knowing that only he can cause belief in your view.

Same reason it takes some people many years of witnessing to finally find Christ. It's all done in God's own time. Obviously God knew how long they would take to respond.., He knows everything. This scripture is rhetorical showing God's long suffereing.

 

[Winman]

No....You just have to misunderstand everyone you post as you have here to make sure you do not welcome truth:thumbs:

OFF TOPIC-

Get well soon......Benjamin:laugh: Are you suffering from repetitive post syndrome??? that happens when you run out of things to say that would be helpful!

I do not welcome truth? Look who's talking. :laugh:

 

[Winman]

Same reason it takes some people many years of witnessing to finally find Christ. It's all done in God's own time. Obviously God knew how long they would take to respond.., He knows everything. This scripture is rhetorical showing God's long suffereing.

Absolutely nonsensical, if God can irresistibly cause any man to have faith whenever he chooses (your view), then there is no reason whatsoever for God to be angry or longsuffering when someone doesn't believe. Pure absurdity.

 

[Iconoclast]

Absolutely nonsensical, if God can irresistibly cause any man to have faith whenever he chooses (your view), then there is no reason whatsoever for God to be angry or longsuffering when someone doesn't believe. Pure absurdity.

Even here you do not understand longsuffering in scripture.Most times being consistent is good....however to consistently miss it...is a sign of resisting so much you are not able to see it:wavey:

 

[Winman]

Even here you do not understand longsuffering in scripture.Most times being consistent is good....however to consistently miss it...is a sign of resisting so much you are not able to see it:wavey:

If it provokes God to anger when a person does not believe, why does he tolerate it? Why doesn't he simply cause them to believe? Does God enjoy being provoked?

This has got to be one of the silliest beliefs I have ever heard. It would be laughable if it weren't so tragic.

Anybody that would believe this stuff would believe anything. You guys want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn? I'll give you a good deal. :laugh:

 

[jbh28]

Absolutely nonsensical, if God can irresistibly cause any man to have faith whenever he chooses (your view), then there is no reason whatsoever for God to be angry or longsuffering when someone doesn't believe. Pure absurdity.

So I'm guessing that you don't believe God can..... Guess God isn't sovereign nor all powerful if God couldn't do something.

 

[Winman]

So I'm guessing that you don't believe God can..... Guess God isn't sovereign nor all powerful if God couldn't do something.

Another attempt to deflect. Why don't you answer why God would be angry at a person for unbelief when he could simply cause them to believe?

As I said before, Calvinism represents God like a father who would be angry at and beating his one year old child for running around the house naked, all the while knowing the child is unable to either purchase clothes or dress himself.

I would like to see a father argue that in Child Services, I'm sure they would understand the father's point of view.

No, they would probably arrest the fellow for neglect and take the child away from him.

But in Calvinism it is perfectly OK for God to be angry when someone does not believe, knowing they are UNABLE to believe (in your view). God could easily regenerate the person and cause them to believe at his will, but he would rather be angry at them and hate them. Nice.

JBH, you are too smart to believe stuff like this, you really are.

 

[jbh28]

Another attempt to deflect.

No, you just denied the sovereignty of God. Is that correct. You don't believe God has the power to save every single person.

so, can God "irresistibly cause any man to have faith whenever he chooses."

If not, then God is not sovereign nor all powerful. If so, well then your point is moot.

 

[Winman]

No, you just denied the sovereignty of God. Is that correct. You don't believe God has the power to save every single person.

so, can God "irresistibly cause any man to have faith whenever he chooses."

If not, then God is not sovereign nor all powerful. If so, well then your point is moot.

I did not so much as mention the sovereignty of God.

I am simply asking you why God would ever be angry at any unbeliever? He knows they are UNABLE to believe in your view, so how can he expect them to believe?

I do not believe God can force men to believe against their will. That would be immoral, if not completely impossible, even for God. Pharaoh saw miracles, yet he did not believe. I cannot imagine any man not believing after the miracles Pharaoh saw, but he did not.

It is not a matter of power, God has the power to do anything, he has the power and ability to lie, but he cannot lie because it is immoral, and God is pure and just, he is sinless, he is HOLY. You want to exalt God's sovereignty at the expense of his other attributes like justice and righteousness. God's greatest attribute is not his power, but his HOLINESS (Rev 4:8).

You believe otherwise, you believe God can do whatever. So, why doesn't God do that? If your view is correct, God must DESIRE that men perish in unbelief. If so, then why is he angry for their unbelief when that is exactly what he wants from them?

You guys portray God like someone who is mentally ill and absolutely unreasonable, he punishes people for inability when he has the power to enable them at his will.

 

[jbh28]

I did not so much as mention the sovereignty of God.

you denied it in your statement.

I'll ask you again, does God have the power to irresistibly cause any man to have faith whenever he chooses."

It's a simple yes or no.

If yes, your point is moot. If no, you deny God's sovereignty. Which one is it Winman? I'm not asking does God want to do something but does he have the power. You said earlier that ,

if God can irresistibly cause any man to have faith whenever he chooses (your view), then there is no reason whatsoever for God to be angry or longsuffering when someone doesn't believe. Pure absurdity.

so does or doesn't God have the power? Your argument was "can God" meaning ability. So does He or not?

 

[Winman]

you denied it in your statement.

I'll ask you again, does God have the power to irresistibly cause any man to have faith whenever he chooses."

No, God cannot sin. He cannot force a person against their will, just as God cannot lie, because that is a sin.

Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

This might rock your world, but here is something that is impossible with God, he cannot lie. God cannot sin or he would cease to be God, for God is HOLY.

It's a simple yes or no.

If yes, your point is moot. If no, you deny God's sovereignty. Which one is it Winman? I'm not asking does God want to do something but does he have the power. You said earlier that ,

so does or doesn't God have the power? Your argument was "can God" meaning ability. So does He or not?

I deny your definition of what sovereignty is. I do not believe God can sin. I do not believe God can force or compel any man to believe, as that would be sin. If you kidnap a girl off the street and assault her, that is a sin because you have forced her and compelled her against her will.

But Calvinists believe otherwise, R. C. Sproul wrote of the "holy rape of the soul" in one of his books. He believes it is ok for God to force someone against their will. And don't give me this doubletalk of yours about God making men willing, in your view, up until he makes them willing, they were completely unwilling. It is force and coercion.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

The devil is the one who forces people, not God.

 

[jbh28]

winman, you are not answering the question but diverting. I'll just assume you don't believe God has the power and therefore don't believe in the sovereignty of God.

I'll ask again before just assuming you deny the sovereignty(there are not multiple definitions of sovereignty) of God and God's omnipotence.

"Does God have the power to irresistibly cause any man to have faith whenever he chooses."

Yes or no?

I'm not asking if God wants to do that or if he does do that, but if God is sovereign over the hearts of man. Simple question if you are willing to answer it.