OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Your argument is with God not me! It was He who said:
John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
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No Man Can Come Unto Me, Except [John 6:65]
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Your argument is with God not me! It was He who said:
John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
freeatlast
New Member
No, it is not I who has the argument. It is you and it is with God and His word. I believe in the whole truth of scripture instead of one side. I believe in election which the bible teaches. I also believe in free will which is also taught. My faith can embrace both even though I cannot explain how they work. However you choose one so that you can come up with some sort of explanation, but the explanation is wrong because you reject the other side.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Very glad to hear, rather read, that you believe the whole truth of Scripture.
If you believe in free will you obviously believe that man has the final vote in Salvation. That is not what Scripture teaches.
You say that the Bible teaches "free will" then why is it that the God tells us:
Romans 3:11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
What does the Father have to give unregenerate man before he can come to Jesus Christ for Salvation.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Until the final word of God when I stand before Him and He says good and faithful servant we all are taking it by faith is His word we are saved unless we think we can judge our own self.
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
in context
7 “But blessed is the one who trusts in the Lord,
whose confidence is in him.
8They will be like a tree planted by the water
that sends out its roots by the stream.
It does not fea when heat comes;
its leaves are always green.
It has no worries in a year of drought
and never fails to bear fruit.”
9The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?
10“I the Lord search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward each person according to their conduct,
****according to what their deeds deserve.”
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
in context
7 “But blessed is the one who trusts in the Lord,
whose confidence is in him.
8They will be like a tree planted by the water
that sends out its roots by the stream.
It does not fea when heat comes;
its leaves are always green.
It has no worries in a year of drought
and never fails to bear fruit.”
9The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?
10“I the Lord search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward each person according to their conduct,
****according to what their deeds deserve.”
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freeatlast
New Member
Free will;
"...Choose today whom you will serve" ...Joshua 24:15
"...So choose life in order that you may live."... Deuteronomy 30:19
"...Choose good"... Isaiah 7:15
"...You did evil in My sight and chose what displeases Me"...
Isaiah 65:12
"...Choose knowledge rather than gold"... Proverbs 8:10
"Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Re 22:17
So, it is not I who has the argument. It is you and it is with God and His word. I believe in the whole truth of scripture instead of one side. I believe in election which the bible teaches. I also believe in free will which is also taught. My faith can embrace both even though I cannot explain how they work. However you choose one so that you can come up with some sort of explanation, but the explanation is wrong because you reject the other side.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have asserted that the unregenerate man does not have free will and that is certainly consistent with the Scripture I have posted. In the Scripture you present above is God speaking to regenerate men or unregenerate men.
I repeat my question: What does the Father have to give unregenerate man before he can come to Jesus Christ for Salvation.
freeatlast
New Member
Your asking questions the bible does not deal with. It is like asking can God create a rock so big that He cannot lift it. What we know is that God elects, and man chooses. Not God elects and because he is elect he chooses which is the false side of hyper Calvinism. So to your question;
"What does the Father have to give unregenerate man before he can come to Jesus Christ for Salvation" If He is giving man anything he is free not to act on it.
The election of God and the free will of man are both in scripture and separate one from the other and are without without cohesion. How that works no one knows. However if you can explain how there is one God and three seperate persons all being God I will also answer your question.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Not according to Scripture:
John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
So you are really amongst the Arminians. Don't be shy, I once was--blind but now I see!
freeatlast
New Member
You are still blind. The only difference is this time you willfully chose it.
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Both election and freewill is taught in scripture. You are rejecting scripture by picking one side.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Freewill for the regenerate is not taught. You are reading your freewill doctrine into Scripture. Now to respond to the Scripture you posted.
Jesus Christ Himself said:
Matthew 7:21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Furthermore, the Scripture you posted is perfectly consistent with that in the previous post:
John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jesus Christ is in effect saying the same thing that He says through the Apostle Paul. God, through election, gives certain persons to Jesus Christ. These are the whosoever that will call upon the Lord.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So you see, the Doctrines of Grace are in harmony with all of Scripture.
jesus and paul told us that while as sinners, sin was our masters, have dominion over us, how is that freedom?
freeatlast
New Member
Free will and election, not just one of them. You still did not explain the Trinity to me, but you want to deny what the bible teaches about free will. God calls, men choose. God elects, men choose. Both working together without overriding the other.
Pure baloney. The scriptures clearly teach that men have free will.
Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
Here God himself said ANY MAN among the children of Israel could bring an offering unto the LORD, and if so he was to bring it of HIS OWN VOLUNTARY WILL. Then God said it would be ACCEPTED to make atonement for him.
This was worship, it was bringing an offering to the Lord. Any man could do it of his own free will, and God said he would accept it.
This teaching that men do not have free will is utterly false and directly contradicts the Word of God.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are misquoting Scripture. God did not say:
God said:
Big Difference!
However, if the man brought the offering and it was accepted he was obviously a believer. You may recall the offering of Cain was not accepted!
Show me from Scripture that an unregenerate men is not in bondage to sin. Show me from Scripture where an unregenerate man, of his own free will, can come to Jesus Christ for Salvation. I have shown you Scripture that says they cannot unless God intervenes.
John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Romans 3:11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
jesus and paul told us that while as sinners, sin was our masters, have dominion over us, how is that freedom?
Were they both wrong?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The Bible teaches that unregenerate man is in bondage to sin. Unregenerate man can choose to sin. They are simply incapable of choosing or desiring God.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Not at all. Scripture does not contradict itself as some seem to believe.
freeatlast
New Member
Free will and election, not just one of them. You still did not explain the Trinity to me, but you want to deny what the bible teaches about free will. God calls, men choose. God elects, men choose. Both working together without overriding the other.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Your repeated remark: "You still did not explain the Trinity to me" is getting a little silly. Now if you don't understand the Trinity you are likely in the company of 99.9999% or more of all "true believers". If you do understand the Trinity then please feel free to explain to all on this Board and I am sure the news will soon become widespread through the Christian Community.
My inability to explain the Trinity to you has absolutely nothing to do with the absence of free will in the unsaved person. I realize they believe they have free will but they are blinded by Satan and sin. Perhaps I should one more time direct your attention th Scripture presented in the OP.
John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Romans 3:11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Now if you can squeeze free will of unsaved man into those Scripture feel free to do so!
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