Featured No Man Can Come Unto Me, Except [John 6:65]

Exodus 19:5
Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,6 you[Or possession, for the whole earth is mine. 6 You] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

Matthew 23 :
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[Psalm 118:26]”

Luke 11 :
46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

1 Thessalonians 2 :
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]

Jesus tells us why their heart is hardened because God has always stretched out His arm for Israel, but they were not willing not God. God even sent prophets to them and they would not listen to them and murdered them. So He said this generation is responsible for the murders, but God also says He is going to keep remnant that are meek and humble that will trust in the Lord and Israel are not without hope, if they turn to Jesus He will remove the veil that covers their heart that prevents it from being softened by the Gospel. To listen and learn from Him just like all who will come to Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3 :
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

These are the people that the Fathers is going to give to His Son.

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 6:68
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Following a crowd does not mean you are drawn by the Father only listening and learning from Him

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

Jeremiah 23 :
21 I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.

 

Where in that verse does it talk about an extra inward working? We both believe one must be born again in order to enter God's kingdom. We both believe he must be born of the Spirit. This verse says nothing about the means of the gospel through which the Spirit makes his appeal to man, but yet we both believe that the gospel is necessary. That the means by which the Spirit works.

I don't think you are following my argument brother. Yes, Jesus is speaking truth to them but he is not giving them all the full gospel message. He is telling them to eat his flesh and drink his blood with out so much as an explanation as to what he means by that. He is speaking to them in parables in order to prevent them from understanding lest they repent. That is not my opinion, that is a fact. His disciples are still not even fully understanding the gospel at that point. Its not even sent to the Gentiles until Peter has his dream. The gospel isn't sent out until after the ascension and that is the means by which God draws men to himself. Do you agree with this point or not? If not, why?

The apostles are the remnant of Israel chosen for the noble purpose of taking the gospel to the rest of the world so that God's purpose in electing Israel would be fulfilled.

Yes, his words are spirit and life but if they have been given a spirit of stupor causing them to be blinded to his words and he speaks in parables and with harsh analogies (i.e. eat my flesh) then obviously he is provoking them. Why? He has to be crucified by them.

Ok, if you prepared a meal for your child and told them to come sit down at the table and eat, would you say that the meal was dependent on the will of your child? Of course not. The meal is provided by your gracious love and provision regardless of whether or not they partake. Now, if you chose NOT to physically force your rebellious child to sit in her chair would you be giving up you physical strength to her? Would you be weaker than her if that was YOUR choice to allow her to respond? Of course not. Yet, that is what you are accusing us of. You seem to think father who chooses not to use physical force is weaker than his child but clearly he is strong enough to force her, but he has chosen not to do that. You accuse us in believing in a weak God while ignoring the fact that our belief is that this is God's chosen method. He sovereignly elected to allow men to respond to his appeal for reconciliation. To insist that makes God weak is a fallacy of the greatest degree.

 

I have asked Skan this question before and he has yet to answer it. He has no problem with God blinding people, but He can't accept that God also opens their eyes, according to HIS sovereignty alone. The Jews were blinded in order to fulfill prophecy but also so that they would be the ones to take the Lamb to the slaughter. If they had accepted Jesus as Messiah, they wouldn't have killed Him and we would still be dead in our sins. So ALL of it is according to the working of God, not man, including salvation.

 

Being drawn does not mean being given, you agree? If not, what substantiates your view?

 

It depends on how you see draw. We are being drawn by His loving kindness, some say it is dragged. We can be drawn all day but if Christ is not the one being lifted up or we are not listening and learning from the Father through the words of life or the words of Jesus that was not His own but the Fathers who sent Him we are not going to come.

 

I see we have yet another thread asserting total spiritual inability is biblical. The same verses have been posted and misrepresented yet again.

No one can come to Jesus unless given by the Father. John 6:37. It says that everyone the Father gives to Jesus comes to Jesus and Jesus will not cast them out. This refers to God putting individuals in Christ, that is the idea here.

Now John 6:44 says no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, but it does not say everyone the Father draws comes to Jesus. Here Calvinism reverses the statement, it says everyone that comes was drawn, and Calvinism claims it says everyone drawn comes to Jesus. Shoddy Bible study.

Next John 6:45 says everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. What this says is if God credits our faith as righteousness, God gives those people to Jesus and so they come to Jesus and Jesus does not cast them out.

Next we have John 6:65 again says no one can come to Jesus unless given to Jesus by God.

So the heart of the matter is what does it mean "to come to Jesus." Does it refer to God putting us spiritually in Christ and sealing us in Christ with the Holy Spirit, i.e. salvation, or does it refer to our autonomous choice to trust in Jesus.

If we look at how the phrase "come to Me" is used in the New Testament, the idea is for a person to relocate bodily, rather than come to agree with Christ's gospel.

John 5:40 is most easily read as indicating acquiescence with the gospel requirements, but that understanding is not required. Let's back up to verse 38, And you do not have His word abiding in you [you are not born again] for you do not believe Him [Jesus] whom He [Father] sent. You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, and it is these [scriptures] that bear witness of Me and you are unwilling to "come to Me", that you may have eternal life. This can be read as meaning you are unwilling to believe in Jesus, or more literally unwilling to be spiritually reborn in Christ that you may have eternal life.

 

Jesus also said that if He were lifted up He would draw ALL men to Himself.

 

So, do cal's think that Christ is lifted up? Or, would they say "Yes he is but the phrase 'all men' does not mean 'all of the humans that can gaze on him (a la the brazen serpent) but the phrase 'all men' only refers to those specific humans that were elected prior to creation." It seems to me that the cal's believe that all that are drawn will be saved, no? Therefore it could not be the case that 'all men' mean "all human beings". Is this contrary to the cal view?

 

(I agree, the first man Adam was created as he was so the last Adam being born in the image of the first Adam would accomplish this Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; (Producing also this Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (That through this Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (We become the following Eph. 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

That required the death (separation from his Father, God) of the only begotten Son of God.

My understanding.

 

Just remember your eyes have to be open in order to gaze on him.

 

Yes, Humblethinker, since they redefine draw, which actually means to attract with God's lovingkindness, to mean compel with irresistible grace, they must rewrite all men to mean all kinds of men. So just like JW's, they use inconsistent hermeneutics to pour their doctrine into the text. "All" means everything imaginable over here, but only preselected guys there. LOL Christ was high and lifted up on the cross, so all who behold Him dying for them are attracted by His lovingkindness. But not all who are attracted to Jesus choose to accept the gospel wholeheartedly. Some superficially do but then fall away when difficulties arise, others cram Jesus into their life but do not toss out other worldly treasures. Still others fully embrace Jesus, commit to Him and have their faith credited by God as righteousness.

 

Prove this accusation. I've answer every question you have asked me Amy. My sister's name is Amy and for some reason when I see your posts I think of her so I've always tried to respond to you carefully and thoroughly. I'd like you to find the post where you asked me this question before and see if I really didn't answer you. I do remember responding to this question and you didn't ever reply to me...maybe there was another time you asked that I didn't see it?

One, do you agree that God does at times blind people? Do you affirm the doctrine of judicial hardening? I do, but I'm not sure what your view is on this. Two, if so, why would God need to blind people born totally blinded already?

I can't? That is news to me. I'm pretty sure that I've explained to you several times that those God hardens he also wants to provoke to envy so that their eyes might be opened and they might be saved (see Romans 11:14). I've also explained that God's hardening of Israel is temporary (as Paul explained in Romans 11).

Scripture is clear that men's eyes are open to the truth, but some choose to trade that clearly revealed truth in for lies (see Romans 1).

Amen.

 

because the jewish people WOULD reject Yeshua as their messiah, save for those whom the Lord enabled to turn to Him and get saved, the gentiles were also to come into the new Coveant with God!

God did NOT harden them supernaturally, they were by the sin natures already harden to Christ, so he did as he did with pharoah, in order to have his chosen elect receive salvation in christ!

 

Double post

 

Harding your heart is simply giving yourself over to your own evil desires for God to give you over to your own evil desires. Pharoah was murdering God's children just like they were murdering His prophets. If you think it was God desire for them to murder them it wasn't His desire was for them to listen and turn from their evil ways to Him. They paid for what they did and will continue til they turn to Him and say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord. How long will it be and how many more Generation til we see our place in the Lord. Romans 11 is a good place to start.

 

Yes God does the calling and man chooses to accept.