The Church Not a Mystery

[thomas15]

The original dispensationalists never claimed that God was surprised that Israel rejected Christ, it is just that the dispensational story makes things look that way. Darby himself affirmed Total Depravity, and Scofield's scheme held to the idea of the natural man always failing in every dispensation.

What do you suppose this says about our brother OR who thinks he has discovered a winning approach in making his case by making up stories disguised as thoughtful research?

 

[freeatlast]

So the death of Jesus Christ was of no effect to the Jew? Then there is no hope for them, other than the elect, because there will be no reestablishing of the law, the blood sacrifices, or anything resembling the Jewish practices of the Mosaic Covenant! That wall that Jesus Christ died to tear down will not be erected again.:applause:

I will show you a Mystery, a great Mystery. Why, Why, would those for whom Jesus Christ died belittle His work, His death, by their obsession with Israel and the return of that which saved no one? Now that is a Mystery!:BangHead::BangHead::tonofbricks:

Thank you for sharing your beliefs but the bible never teaches those things so I suggest that you reconsider what you believe. Christ died for all. I feel sorry for you that you just cannot come to grips that He is the Messiah of the Jew first and then the Gentile, but like I have said before you simply seem not able to believe the bible.

 

[OldRegular]

To avoid derailing this thread I have responded to the above by thomas15 on the appropriate thread!

 

[thomas15]

To avoid derailing this thread I have responded to the above by thomas15 on the appropriate thread!

To use allegory, you have been caught with you figurative pants down. At this point you have no creditability. It is not possible to derail a thread that was never on track to begin with.

Have a blessed day OldRegular!

 

[freeatlast]

To avoid derailing this thread I have responded to the above by thomas15 on the appropriate thread!

You mean to get way from answering your opponents with sound scriptural logic. :laugh:

 

[Yeshua1]

The dispensationalists I know say that the church Jesus established ("upon this rock I will build my church") is NOT the Body of Christ (today). It is the law-keeping "church of Israel" that will be reestablished after the Rapture.

I have NEVER heard that!

As a Dispy, I always read and was taught that Jesus founded the Church at pentacost, and that BOTH jews/Gentiles have to be saved under New Covemamt by Yeshua, and ONLY the lst generation of Jews alive at second coming will benefit from the Physical promises jesus grants them when he sets up his Kingdom here on earth!

 

[freeatlast]

The original dispensationalists never claimed that God was surprised that Israel rejected Christ, it is just that the dispensational story makes things look that way. Darby himself affirmed Total Depravity, and Scofield's scheme held to the idea of the natural man always failing in every dispensation.

Can you give us some names so we can see what these people said about this?

 

[OldRegular]

I have NEVER heard that!

As a Dispy, I always read and was taught that Jesus founded the Church at pentacost, and that BOTH jews/Gentiles have to be saved under New Covemamt by Yeshua, and ONLY the lst generation of Jews alive at second coming will benefit from the Physical promises jesus grants them when he sets up his Kingdom here on earth!

And the Scriptural basis for that "opinion"?

 

[AresMan]

I have NEVER heard that!

As a Dispy, I always read and was taught that Jesus founded the Church at pentacost, and that BOTH jews/Gentiles have to be saved under New Covemamt by Yeshua, and ONLY the lst generation of Jews alive at second coming will benefit from the Physical promises jesus grants them when he sets up his Kingdom here on earth!

The dispensationalists I know are Pauline (mid-Acts) dispensationalists.

 

[DHK]

And the Scriptural basis for that "opinion"?

John 16:24; Acts 1:8
Jesus promises the Holy Spirit will come. He commands them to wait at Jerusalem until he comes. The Holy Spirit comes on the Day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost was FULLY come.
They spoke with other tongues, they were all filled with the Holy Spirit.
The prophecy of Joel was fulfilled.
The prophecy of David was fulfilled.
This was the beginning of the church at Jerusalem, and the beginning of the Church Age.
Here, on this day alone, 3,000 were added to the newly formed church at Jerusalem.

The rapture is spoken of in 4:14-17. The Lord shall come back (as they saw him depart) in Acts chapter one. And the saints of God shall depart with him.

The second coming is described in Mark 8:38 and many other like passages when the Lord shall descend from heaven with his holy angels in power. It is a vastly different event when he comes to conquer.

Between those to events the Great Tribulation will take place, also known as Jacob's Trouble. The Second Coming will end that Tribulation, when Christ comes to defeat the enemies of Israel, "and so all Israel shall be saved. The Great Tribulation is described in Rev.6 through 19.

After that the Millennial Kingdom shall start. There are plenty of Scriptures in Isaiah describing this event. After a thousand year reign with Christ, then the Lord will create a new heaven and a new earth, and the eternal state will begin.

I have just written a few things down by memory. Others may fill in some gaps, add more Scriptural support, etc.

 

[OldRegular]

DHK

You have presented your opinion but no Scriptural support. I can present Scripture that clearly teaches a general resurrection and judgment! Can you present one passage of Scripture that clearly teaches a pre-trib removal of the Church?

 

[thomas15]

DHK

You have presented your opinion but no Scriptural support. I can present Scripture that clearly teaches a general resurrection and judgment! Can you present one passage of Scripture that clearly teaches a pre-trib removal of the Church?

Given the fact that you don't see the church as being comprised only of those saved after Pentecost but rather you place the redeemed since Adam in the church it is impossible to answer your question to your satisfaction.

 

[Iconoclast]

Given the fact that you don't see the church as being comprised only of those saved after Pentecost but rather you place the redeemed since Adam in the church it is impossible to answer your question to your satisfaction.

Exactly Thomas,

In Hebrews 11 when it speaks of the saints...it includes the saints who were before the nation, those during the nation, and then us....which leads to Hebrews !2:22-24

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Thomas.....can you see this is just the natural unfolding of the whole plan?

 

[DHK]

DHK

You have presented your opinion but no Scriptural support. I can present Scripture that clearly teaches a general resurrection and judgment! Can you present one passage of Scripture that clearly teaches a pre-trib removal of the Church?

Read again. This time slowly. I think you will find plenty of Scripture to back up my position.

 

[thomas15]

... Thomas.....can you see this is just the natural unfolding of the whole plan?

In a word, no.

 

[Iconoclast]

In a word, no.

Thomas can you show me why post 93 is given a NO????What was said in simple form that was not accurate???

 

[OldRegular]

Exactly Thomas,

In Hebrews 11 when it speaks of the saints...it includes the saints who were before the nation, those during the nation, and then us....which leads to Hebrews !2:22-24


Thomas.....can you see this is just the natural unfolding of the whole plan?

If the dispensationalists would read Hebrews with the aid of the Holy Spirit they might understand God's purpose in salvation, in the use of Israel to bring Jesus Christ into the world to fulfill Genesis 3:15. Great things would happen!:applause::applause:

 

[DHK]

If the dispensationalists would read Hebrews with the aid of the Holy Spirit they might understand God's purpose in salvation, in the use of Israel to bring Jesus Christ into the world to fulfill Genesis 3:15. Great things would happen!:applause::applause:

It is this type of personal attack, which goes as far as to attack the salvation of others, that is not needed.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Attacking someone's salvation is an impossibility, it cannot be done. No one should be offended if they are bought.

 

[OldRegular]

It is this type of personal attack, which goes as far as to attack the salvation of others, that is not needed.

You are reading what you want into that post DHK, something that is not there! That post was in response to the excellent one by Iconoclast. Are you dispensationalists determined to find some way to get me off this forum? It appears so to me, and I suspect to others.

I would also note that you were the one who bolded the words: If the dispensationalists would read Hebrews with the aid of the Holy Spirit. It is commonly recognized by Christians that proper understanding of Scripture is only through the aid of the Holy Spirit; at least that is what the Apostle Peter tells us!