Whose Son is YHVH, the Christ?

[Moriah]

No, I believe, the invisible Father is the CREATOR (ex-nihilo) of the heavens and earth… while the Son (YHVH), was the MAKER who formed our heavens and earth with his own physical hands - for inhabitation thereof.

I think I am with you on this, in fact, I have spoke of this before here and else where, except for what you say here. The creator and the maker are the same, but it sounds as if you are making them two different things. Could you explain better how being a creator and maker can be different?

 

[Seve]

So the bottom-line..... the apologizers here believe that God is one in Number. It’s a belief that even the Jews, Oneness people and the Unitarians could relate to. Whereas, I believe God is one in Unity. The Elohim (The plural of Eloah, God), who is one (Echad) in Unity.

Deuteronomy 6:4 attests to this fact: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHVH or Jehovah) our God (Elohim, plural referring to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, who were all individually called God), is ONE (united) LORD.

For example...

ONE IN UNITY is used in the case of Gen. 2:24, when the husband and wife were called ONE by God. How can the two in number, be One?

This is possible only in the sense of UNITY. We can understand John 10:30 in this sense, “I and my Father are one.” One in Unity not in number. It is also in this sense that the thousands can be one like the builders of the tower of Babel in Gen 11:6. Even the millions of Christians can be one in this sense according to John 17:21.

The use of “ECHAD” of Genesis 2:24 best explains the “ECHAD” of Deuteronomy 6:4. Therefore, when Moses said that the husband and wife (TWO BEINGS) would become “ECHAD” (one), that is a “collective one” of two beings.” If that is “collective one” of TWO BEINGS, why would you assume that Moses’ usage of “ECHAD” in Deut. 6:4 is a “collective one” of ONE BEING?

When Moses applied “collective one” to God in Deut. 6:4 it was applied to MORE THAN ONE ENTITY. Otherwise, it was an erroneous usage for Moses since “collective one” can only be applied to more than one entity.

I don’t have any problem with the three Persons and in ONE God (Collective ONE, that is). But the issue is this:

Did the Bible say that the BEING of the Son is the SAME BEING of the Father and of the Holy Spirit since the traditional view says God exist as three distinct persons but not separate persons?

I don't think so.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So the bottom-line..... the apologizers here believe that God is one in Number. It’s a belief that even the Jews, Oneness people and the Unitarians could relate to. Whereas, I believe God is one in Unity. The Elohim (The plural of Eloah, God), who is one (Echad) in Unity.

Deuteronomy 6:4 attests to this fact: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHVH or Jehovah) our God (Elohim, plural referring to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, who were all individually called God), is ONE (united) LORD.

For example...

ONE IN UNITY is used in the case of Gen. 2:24, when the husband and wife were called ONE by God. How can the two in number, be One?

This is possible only in the sense of UNITY. We can understand John 10:30 in this sense, “I and my Father are one.” One in Unity not in number. It is also in this sense that the thousands can be one like the builders of the tower of Babel in Gen 11:6. Even the millions of Christians can be one in this sense according to John 17:21.

The use of “ECHAD” of Genesis 2:24 best explains the “ECHAD” of Deuteronomy 6:4. Therefore, when Moses said that the husband and wife (TWO BEINGS) would become “ECHAD” (one), that is a “collective one” of two beings.” If that is “collective one” of TWO BEINGS, why would Simoline assume that Moses’ usage of “ECHAD” in Deut. 6:4 is a “collective one” of ONE BEING?

When Moses applied “collective one” to God in Deut. 6:4 it was applied to MORE THAN ONE ENTITY. Otherwise, it was an erroneous usage for Moses since “collective one” can only be applied to more than one entity.

I don’t have any problem with the three Persons and in ONE God (Collective ONE, that is). But the issue is this:

Did the Bible say that the BEING of the Son is the SAME BEING of the Father and of the Holy Spirit since the traditional view says God exist as three distinct persons but not separate persons?

I don't think so.

As I stated previously you hold a gnostic view of God. Jesus said I and the Father are one, Not I and the Father become one. God isn't a plurality of gods becoming one or united in thought as it is with man and woman. God isn't a unified council. God is the first cause, to become something other by joining with another being to become something else would reliquish him as first cause because then he would be mutable and God can not be mutable and the first cause. Echad is the hebrew word for one as in echad, stayim, shalosh, arba, chamesh, shesh, shevah, shmoneh, tesha, eser.... etc... Which means God is one God "shema yisael Adoni eloheinu Adoni echad" "Hear O Israel the Lord our God is one!" which means there are no other gods major or minor.

 

[Seve]

I think I am with you on this, in fact, I have spoke of this before here and else where, except for what you say here. The creator and the maker are the same, but it sounds as if you are making them two different things. Could you explain better how being a creator and maker can be different?

Biblically speaking....

Create (ex-nihilo) - God, the Father, thru the power of his logos.... create things from nothing.

Making / Forming - physically making up things from already existing matters.

Example: Insertions are mine for presentation only....

Genesis 2:4 These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created (by the Father thru the power of his logos), in the day that the LORD God (Son) made the earth and the heavens, (thru the palm of his hands)

Thanks

 

[Seve]

Scripture says No man knows the name of Almighty God Father even to this date, until one overcometh in the end - only then the name would be written and revealed as promised by the Son.

Look and read:

Revelation 3
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

IF YHVH is the Father himself, then Jesus is only pulling our legs -- promising to reveal the name of his God... when it is already documented in the Scripture (OT). Would that be the case, of course not .... unless of course, in addition, all of you have already overcometh the end of this world?

Ephesians 3
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, v15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Revelation 19
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, THAT NO MAN KNEW, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Based on the above Scripture..... No one knows the name of the invisible Almighty Father, at this time.... and I agree.

Thanks

 

[Moriah]

Biblically speaking....

Create (ex-nihilo) - God, the Father, thru the power of his logos.... create things from nothing.

Making / Forming - physically making up things from already existing matters.

Example: Insertions are mine for presentation only....

Genesis 2:4 These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created (by the Father thru the power of his logos), in the day that the LORD God (Son) made the earth and the heavens, (thru the palm of his hands)

Thanks

God is invisible.
Jesus is God made visible.
Jesus was with God in the beginning.
I believe Jesus was God made visible from the beginning.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

From what I gather from your posts, it sounds as if we have the same beliefs about this. If that is the case, then I am glad to meet someone with whom I can study this more.

 

[Seve]

God is invisible.
Jesus is God made visible.
Jesus was with God in the beginning.
I believe Jesus was God made visible from the beginning.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

From what I gather from your posts, it sounds as if we have the same beliefs about this. If that is the case, then I am glad to meet someone with whom I can study this more.

Thank you very much!!! It's nice to be accepted even though we might vary a little bit our understanding.

And may the good Lord share you more wisdom and understanding of the knowledge of him. God Bless

:godisgood:

 

[Moriah]

Thank you very much!!! It's nice to be accepted even though we might vary a little bit our understanding.

And may the good Lord share you more wisdom and understanding of the knowledge of him. God Bless

:godisgood:

Thank you. God has shared so much with me so that I can know Him better. It sounds as if you might know the joy I have. I hope to find that we are like-minded in many ways.
In His love,
Moriah

 

[Yeshua1]

Scripture says No man knows the name of Almighty God Father even to this date, until one overcometh in the end - only then the name would be written and revealed as promised by the Son.

Look and read:

Revelation 3
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

IF YHVH is the Father himself, then Jesus is only pulling our legs -- promising to reveal the name of his God... when it is already documented in the Scripture (OT). Would that be the case, of course not .... unless of course, in addition, all of you have already overcometh the end of this world?

Ephesians 3
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, v15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Revelation 19
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, THAT NO MAN KNEW, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Based on the above Scripture..... No one knows the name of the invisible Almighty Father, at this time.... and I agree.

Thanks

ONE God in three seperate Persons, unity

NOT 3 seperate Gods in agreement
NOT one God who has 3 modes he manifests Himself in!

 

[Seve]

ONE God in three seperate Persons, unity

NOT 3 seperate Gods in agreement
NOT one God who has 3 modes he manifests Himself in!

Thanks for your religious opinion.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks for your religious opinion.

not opinion, as that is how the bible describes God!

 

[Seve]

Note: Insertion is mine for presentation.

Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my (David's) Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Who was David's Lord in the Old Testament... when he had this prophetic vision above, YHVH?

If so, who was the LORD... asking David's Lord (YHVH) of Old, to sit down on his right hand ..... ?

Thanks

 

[The Biblicist]

Therefore, you must conclude there are TWO different types of "god"! One "God" that has attributes completey different from the other "god." One who is immutable while the other is mutable, one who is eternal while the other has a point of origin, one who is self-sufficient while the other dependent upon the former for existence.

What do you do with the plentiful assertions that there is but "one" true God and there are no other gods before or after him?




Does it bother you that not one single text in the Bible ever says that any God was ever formed? Indeed, it is YHVH that says no god existed before him nor any god formed after him?

If no "god" existed before YHVH would not that be a complete denial that the Father is God?

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Do you claim the Father is God the eternal Spirit that existed prior to YHVH? How does your theory answer these scriptures that YHVH denies any "God" exists before him, beside him or that he knows of any other God except Him?

In addition what do you do with John 1:1 and the assertion that The Word existed eternally and outside of creation? At what point was YVHV formed and made visible according to your theory?

Where are you Seve? No answer?

 

[The Biblicist]

How does your response above harmonize with Malichi 3:6 since it is YVHV that is speaking! You admit that YVHV is not the Father but changes and yet it is YVHV that is the One speaking in Malichi 3:6 claiming he never changes and He says this prior to incarnation?

Seve, no answer? My response above is to these words by you:

Originally Posted by Seve
Correct, the invisible Almighty God Father is a Spirit that NEVER change - no physical shape or form... whatsoever.

 

[Seve]

How does your response above harmonize with Malichi 3:6 since it is YVHV that is speaking! You admit that YVHV is not the Father but changes and yet it is YVHV that is the One speaking in Malichi 3:6 claiming he never changes and He says this prior to incarnation?

Seve, no answer? My response above is to these words by you:

Originally Posted by Seve
Correct, the invisible Almighty God Father is a Spirit that NEVER change - no physical shape or form... whatsoever.

As you can see in my quote above.... I was speaking of the Divine Nature of the invisible Almighty God Father - who is a Spirit - that never change -- NO PHYSICAL SHAPE OR FORM.

However, in response to your querry above regarding Mal 3:6...about YHVH righteousness that changes not.... Please do not combine apples and oranges. It's a prophesy that took place in the OT... fulfilled in the NT.

I suggest that you read the entire context of your own cited text again.... in order for you to understand the the Lord YHVH was referring to his own attributes of mercy .... to fulfill his covenant of promise to the sons of Jacob... redemption and mercy.... will be open to those who will return back to him after repenting their sins... The covenant or promise will never change.... and redemption will come in the new testament.

:thumbsup:

 

[The Biblicist]

As you can see in my quote above.... I was speaking of the Divine Nature of the invisible Almighty God Father - who is a Spirit - that never change -- NO PHYSICAL SHAPE OR FORM.

However, in response to your querry above regarding Mal 3:6...about YHVH righteousness that changes not.... Please do not combine apples and oranges. It's a prophesy that took place in the OT... fulfilled in the NT.

I suggest that you read the entire context of your own cited text again.... in order for you to understand the the Lord YHVH was referring to his own attributes of mercy .... to fulfill his covenant of promise to the sons of Jacob... redemption and mercy.... will be open to those who will return back to him after repenting their sins... The covenant or promise will never change.... and redemption will come in the new testament.

:thumbsup:

I know the context very well and I know you do not know what you are talking about! Neither the English or the Hebrew grammar supports your wild interpretation. The subject of immutability is not any attribute of YHVH but YHVH himself "I". He does not say "my righteousness" or "my mercy" but "I change not."

 

[savedbymercy]

seve

Based on the Scripture, I believe Jesus is YHVH himself, the Son of the Invisible Almighty God Father

Agreed

He was sent into this world and became flesh to save us from our sins.....

Who are the us, and was He successful, since He was God !

 

[The Biblicist]

What do you do with the plentiful assertions that there is but "one" true God and there are no other gods before or after him? ......Indeed, it is YHVH that says no god existed before him nor any god formed after him?

If no "god" existed before YHVH would not that be a complete denial that the Father is God?

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Do you claim the Father is God the eternal Spirit that existed prior to YHVH? How does your theory answer these scriptures that YHVH denies any "God" exists before him, beside him or that he knows of any other God except Him?

In addition what do you do with John 1:1 and the assertion that The Word existed eternally and outside of creation? At what point was YVHV formed and made visible according to your theory?

Again, no response to these scriptures that completely devestate your opinions???

 

[Seve]

Again, no response to these scriptures that completely devestate your opinions???

:laugh: lol.... How could you have the audacity to even suggest that you have "devastated my opinion"..... based on your own distored made up premises for fallacious argument? You definitely have a thick skin, alright.

Okay, this will be tha last time I am going to clarify my position... based on your distoreted premises.... for the sake of others and for the sake of exposing what I believe to be blatant dishonesty on your part.

Next time, I will not respond to any distorted premises, except make a notation on it..... therefore, do not even waste your time posting.

What do you do with the plentiful assertions that there is but "one" true God and there are no other gods before or after him?

Does it bother you that not one single text in the Bible ever says that any God was ever formed? Indeed, it is YHVH that says no god existed before him nor any god formed after him?

Wrong, it does not bother me simply because it is not an assertion on my part but what’s proclaimed by the Lord himself... as documented in the Scripture.

Again, I ask you to read my previous post (below) very s-l-o-w-l-y regarding this same matter.

In the Book of Isaiah 43, Our Lord YHVH, made the following declaration......

Isaiah 43:10~11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (YHVH), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. v11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Note: To be witnessed is to be physically seen or experienced.

In fact, the usage of the two negative words above (no & neither) actually resulted to a positive statement... He is the only God physically formed.... to be seen and witnessed.

His Father is the invisible Spirit of Love (no physical shape or form) - which no man hath seen at anytime.... nor his name ' been revealed to anyone, at this time. Therefore, our Lord God (YHVH) of the Old Testament could not have been the invisible God Father as others would like us to believe.... but the Son of God himself. Beside him, there's no other saviour.

If no "god" existed before YHVH would not that be a complete denial that the Father is God?

Your argument about “god” (note: not capitalized) is only based on your own distorted made up premises. Where do you see in my post that suggest in your insinuation… denying the Father as God? Obviously, you are twisting what was said and being dishonest about it… tsk… tsk… tsk…

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Do you claim the Father is God the eternal Spirit that existed prior to YHVH? How does your theory answer these scriptures that YHVH denies any "God" exists before him, beside him or that he knows of any other God except Him?

Where do you see in the Scripture that …. YHWH denies any “God” (note: capitalized word - God) existed before him, beside him or that he knows of any God except him?” Obviouslly, this is another distorted made up premises aimed only for fallacious argument.

Besides, the context of the cited text indicate that he (YHVH) is the only God physically FORMED for us to worship and witness.... NOT that they should worship graven images, idols or pagan gods.

Again, try to listen to other' rather than pretending to be a smart person that you are not. :BangHead:

In addition what do you do with John 1:1 and the assertion that The Word existed eternally and outside of creation? At what point was YVHV formed and made visible according to your theory?

Again, get somebody to help you understand what you are reading. I have already posted previously that the invisible Father brought forth the Son before the world was. Look again and read.

Based on my Biblical understanding..... God is one (echad) in unity.... NOT... in number.

in fact, the Father and the Son are both separate entities, therefore, both are collective ONE God (Echad) in unity.

John17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Based on the Scripture above.... accordingly....

....The Father has his ownself Being....

.... the Son has his ownself Being as well...... even before the world was.... even before he was sent into this world and became flesh.

My Conclusion: YHVH is not the Father but the Christ himself, the Son of God - the only God formed for us to see and witness... the great I AM of old.

As I have posted, the Son was brought forth into this physical world from the invisible realm of the Almighty Father... when he commanded and said in the beginning before our world was.... LET THERE BE LIGHT"

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Scripture says No man knows the name of Almighty God Father even to this date, until one overcometh in the end - only then the name would be written and revealed as promised by the Son.

Look and read:

Revelation 3
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The problem with your whole approach is you are rellying on your own ability soley to understand scriptures. Which it seeems is not a good thing for you. It is clear by your interpretation of Revelation three that you have misunderstood what you quoted. As we see throughout scripture begining in Genesis as God reveals himself to humanity, God's people give him new titles reflecting how God has dealt with them. And the more time passes and God has revealed more of himself the more titles he aquires.
For instance God begins to be simply known as Elohim or God emphasis on power. Genesis 1:1. Then he's revealed as Adonai emphasising Lordship. Then he's revealed as YHWH referencing Salvation then he's revealed as Maccaddeshem or sanctifier, then he's revealed as Rohi or our shepherd, then he's revealed as Jireh or our provider and with each instance of him interacting with his people and they discover more about God they apply a new title. Thus in revelation when a new title is given for his greatness and salvation that is applied to those who are his. That's why it is a new name rather than an unknown name.

Ephesians 3
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, v15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Haven't you heard that God puts his name on those who belong to him?

Revelation 19
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, THAT NO MAN KNEW, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

I think you need to read that passage again. You left out a few things.

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
(Revelation 19:11-16 ESV)

The passage is clear the same person that is said to have

a name written that no one knows but himself

is also the same person who is named

The Word of God

and

King of kings and Lord of lords

. It is the same person. Not a different entity he is revealing the "secret name" for but a new name for himself a new title that he is in the process of gaining for himself. This "secret god" of yours is a distinct gnostic idea. That there is a secret knowledge which only the enlightened can know. You have misapplied scripture.