Featured Have a Beer! It may be sinful NOT TO!

Name them, please.

 

John MacArthur on alcohol and ministry

"It is puerile and irresponsible for any pastor to encourage the recreational use of intoxicants – especially in church-sponsored activities," MacArthur, who leads Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, Calif., wrote in a recent blog post. "The ravages of alcoholism and drug abuse in our culture are too well known, and no symbol of sin’s bondage is more seductive or more oppressive than booze."
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/j...ooze-with-ministry-54002/#R2QGtbbcw7tx38gA.99

As I said before, Paul lived in a different culture, as did our Puritan and Pilgrim forefathers. What is a stigma in one era is not in another.

 

I drank to excess in the Navy many years ago, not often, but when I did, it was sort of like the eight shot of tequilla described in an above post. Saved or not, that told me I had no business drinking after getting out of the service. I considered taking the doctor's advice of a glass of red wine everyday after the bypass operation three years ago, and decided against it. I eat pizza to make up for it. LOL

The way I look at it today is more of a witness issue than believing the Bible teaches abstinence. I do not per se think a Christian drinking in moderation, if that is what they are really doing is a sin. However, being a deacon, a Sunday School Director and other ministries, it is a terrible example. If I am not willing to drink a beer while teaching Sunday School, then something about it must bother me.

On top of all that, it bothers my wife to sit in a bar area that is divided off in many restaruants today such as OCharleys or Red Lobster, so I do not. That is all the reason I need. I will admit we had a difference of opinion once about that subject when the wait was sixty minutes, or walk right into the bar area. I thought about it a few minutes, and in that case, we went to a restaruant down the road. To me, it is all a matter of thinking of others before yourself.

This whole post relates to me personally, and like I said, others drinking in moderation is their business, and I do not view it as a sin. The question is, how many people drink in moderation if they are honest. It is less than ten percent, to be sure. Jews do not recongnize Jesus, Protestants do not recognize the Pope, and Baptists do not recongize each other in a liquor store.

 

Hey Saturnneptue were we in the navy together:

that is exactly what I did!

 

I was an IC2, IC1, and ET3 at various times. How about you??

 

-->drinking alchohol is also not commanded in scripture, and so if we hold to the sufficiency of scripture, we cannot call abstaining a sin. (I assume Luke is being facetious in his statements here...but if not, he is committing the same error he accuses teetotalers of making.)

-->However, there IS good that has come from drinking alchohol: Namely, The return by many who were once legalists to an approach to scripture that says we will not call something sinful that the scripture does not call sinful (Sufficiency of scripture). There are many things God says are sinful...we don't need to add sins...whether its abstaining or drinking.

BTW, John Piper basically holds the same position as McArthur here: Not necessarily a sin, but in Modern America...wise to abstain.

 

Your sources are flawed. For instance, the first one assumes Catholics are Christian. IMO, they are not. They have their gods and goddesses they pray to. Not a Christian practice.

Your second source seems to be exaggerating on the amount of beer carried by the pilgrims. New York times tells a different account altogether...

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/barr-drink.html

Since your sources are flawed, (which is to be expected on Wikipedia) I highly doubt "most Christians" drank alcohol.

 

You are saying that I am scriptural not followIng Paul which is attack on me and I am trying to see where anything I said is. Eating and drinking are two different things you can be a strong Christian and teach abstaining from alcohol. If it is in fact causing discord among believers. There will always be weak brothers. If something is causing men to stumble and sin cut it off. If it isn't causing you to stumble or people around you then drink. If you find alcohol is ok in scripture then do, if anyone sees the damage it is causing to one self and other and teach to abstain than teach it for the sake off all weak Christian coming to Jesus being an alcoholic and don't like who they are when they drink. Drinking to me isn't more important than those around me.

 

As stated above, for me, the purpose of drinking when I did was drinking was to feel good. Today, it is that plus, as you stated, a witness to others. I still cannot say that others come to the same conclusion. In the realm of possibility, there are Christians that really drink in moderation, and do not view it as a stumbling block to others. That is not the case with me, but feel I have no right to impose my views on others, as one would be hard pressed to make a case for abstinence from Scripture.

 

If it isn't causing anyone to sin or you to sin then there will be no reason to do the extreme to cut it off.

 

EM3,EM2 and EM1 Nuke Carrier Sailor Nimitz. I got out in 81

 

Some of the most mature and vibrant Christian people I've ever known - most, in fact - have been known to drink alcohol.

And it doesn't harm your witness. The only people who believe that it does are those who are against it to begin with. You think non-Christians care? Absolutely not.

Drink or don't drink, it's whatever, but don't push your conviction on other people.

 

I have a friend who is an alcoholic even though he and his wife have not touched a drop of alcohol in over 20 years. But, he said any time he sees someone drinking it does affect their witness to him and also it temps him. So, yes it can have a negative impact on your witness and you may tempt someone who may, because of your drinking, fall into excessive drinking again. To me that would be a sin in that it caused another to sin.

 

I am a teetotaler, but my definition is not as yours. I abstain totally, and think all Christians that don't should keep it to themself so they don't tempt or cause anyone to go astray. Maybe that makes me an abstentionist, then. I would not go so far as to say all alcohol use is a sin. I just don't see the upside in Christianity.

 

I was on the Ike. We relieved y'all in the Gulf during the Iran Hostage Crisis.

 

I used to be a big time abstentionist and I often referred to the "don't cause others to stumble" argument as my reasoning. But, is my have a hamburger causing the glutton to stumble? Is my getting a new vehicle causing the materialist to fall? Is my working out and getting "firm buns" causing others to lust? :smilewinkgrin:

My point is that while we should practice the Romans 14 principle of submitting to the 'weaker brethren' among us there is no way to know every other person's area of weakness. Maybe legalism is their weakness and a drink of wine would do them well? Bottom line is that we need to put relationships first, not rules. And having been on both sides of this issue, I can honestly say that my relationship with my 'drinking buds' is deeper than any others. I use that term loosely because we probably only drink about 3 or 4 times a year on special occasions and in the privacy of our own homes.

I've also come to learn that there is few things that break the ice and open conversation with the 'unchurched' than sitting down over a beer and a football game. I've won more souls in that context than I ever have in the 'come to my church and listen to me preach' context. People want to know you're a real person and not going to look down on them and judge them for every thing they do. There is a reason Jesus was called a drunkard and friend of sinners.

 

Point taken. I was specifically pointing toward a spiritual witness to non-Christians, but you're right in correcting me. I would never want to put such a person in a difficult position with drinking.