Featured Calvinists... do you have a problem with the concept that God is the ultimate...

You are not really wrong, you are going exactly where Calvinism leads. Hyper-Calvinism is simply consistent Calvinism. In fact, early hyper-Calvinists were often known as Consistent Calvinists.

The error is that God does not determine every minute thing that is done as Calvinism insists. God allows men to act freely within limits.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

The Jews were sacrificing their children to idols. Did God know about it? YES. But God never commanded this, God never caused this, this was men acting freely. God allowed it, but God did not cause it.

This did not HAVE to happen, the Jews did not HAVE to sacrifice their children to idols.

 

Analysis

Do any of the verses say God ordained sin? No.

Well if God made everything, does that not equate with ordaining sin? No. God created creatures with the capacity for making autonomous choices including sinful choices. But He did not ordain or predestine all of our choices. Some He simply allowed.

In a verse like Amos 3:6 a variety of meanings are possible. If a natural calamity befalls a city, an earthquake, or drought, certainly God created our harsh environment. And as I pointed out before, if you are in the path of the tornado, it seems an evil wind to you. Thus evil is simply what goes against our desire for well being. The same wind that hits my house but misses yours is both evil and gracious, depending on our point of view.

Does scripture tell us why God created our harsh environment? Yes, so we seek God as a refuge. Just another truth Calvinism must deny.

Romans 3:5 says God is righteous when He inflicts wrath. That premise would be absurd if God ordained the unrighteousness. He would be punishing us for predestined actions. So Romans 3:5 teaches we store up wrath because of our autonomous choices.

 

God will give us over to our own evil desire our will not His will that leads to death. His will is for the wicked to repent and live.

All this is true, because we have a free agency. God will put a hedge of protection to protect His own or remove it to bring about His will. It doesn't stop their evil desire, they will just do it to the ones who is not protected.

Wickedness was found, when they worshiped what was created over the creator. He ordained him and appointed him for something else until he went against His will.

God will accomplished what needs to be done even against our will by using our evil desire, but He didn't cause our evil desire it is your own desire.

 

I never stated anything about just being a spectator. Spectators are not in control.

This being the case, the majority of true believers are not 5 pointers.

The fact there are differences in understanding prove the contradiction.

How am I drifting off topic

No, it is merely avoiding the logical conclusion that the doctrine leads.

The debate fallacy known as question begging is that "Jesus taught all 5 points".

 

Yes God is not the author of sin, but of course permits (allows) sin. But in order to allow sin, that means He did not predestine or cause the sin.

Calvinism's claim that God ordains all things but is not the author of sin is a logical impossibility. The Biblical view is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. Pretty simple really.

 

webdog

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No...you did not....however you agree with the result...so how did God have it happen, how did He influence it. The text said God did several things.
While you answer that...explain how God had Nebuchadnezzar eat grass like an animal...without controling the situation...take your time but explain how it happens....angels? pure power? an unknowm but completely effective force.
How did God prepare the fish to catch Jonah as lunchmeat?
How did God prepare the worm to smite jonahs Gord vine?

This is a debatable point for sure.

No...just different levels of sanctification ...perhaps.Or God has a specific reason for witholding some truth.

I am not always sure why...but you start to dispute words, rather than address scripture. Take a look at some of your posts....there is a pattern...you kind of trail off....:laugh::laugh:

Only to those who have come up short on it.

No fallacy here.....this is clearly taught in the gospels...on almost every page.The doctrine is fully there...the theological terms have come later on.

 

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

Is the sense of world here, the present created system of order? The Lamb was slain from the creation of the present system of order that begin with, "Let there be light? Correct or incorrect?

The moment before that was said, darkness was upon the face of the deep of the without form and void earth.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

What was the darkness that was upon the face of the deep? Did the darkness come from a created being? Was God at this time renewing the face of the earth for a purpose concerning the darkness that was upon the face of the deep?

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

What is the power of death? Is death outer darkness? Where did it come from? Was it present upon the earth when God said, "Let there be light?
Did God call the light good and separate the light from the darkness?
Does one either walk in the light or the darkness. Was there time assigned to this light and darkness even before the Sun and Moon was set in the heavens?

Remember there is either light or there is darkness.

John 11:9,10 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. (Kosmos same as Rev. 8:13) But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him. ----The evening and the morning were the first day. ----- Why did the evening come first?


Where does darkness come from, is sin darkness, was death present on the earth when God said let there be light, was the light God's presence a place he had removed himself from, is any or all of this relative to the nature of man, election and or free will? Why is man like he is?

What world was it predetermined the Lamb of God, His Son would be born into for what purpose?

Is God through the man child Jesus his only begotten Son creating a new creation by the resurrection from the dead of the Son of God, Son of man for a new creation?

Will this be done by election of God or by the free will of men?

 

Answers

1) In the phrase "from the foundation of the world" what does the world refer to? The plant earth. The idea is after creation because creation created the foundation of the world.

2)The phrase "from the foundation of the world" modifies the word "written" in Revelation 13:8 according to modern scholarship. The KJV is a mistranslation. So what the verse says is names were not written [and therefore probably also written] in the Lamb's book of life after creation. Thus our names are written when God puts us spiritually in Christ. If the election of Ephesians 1:4 had been individual rather than corporate, then scripture would read "written before the foundation of the world." Not how it reads, therefore the election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate.

3) What was the darkness upon the surface of the deep in Genesis 1:2. Lots of differing opinions concerning the opening verses of Genesis, but in the minds at the time, the oceans were seen as unknown and so God acted upon what is unknown before physical light was created. Therefore darkness was upon the unknown is how I understand this verse.

4) What is the power of death? Death is separation from the living, and so when something, i.e. the wages of sin, separates us from God is has the power of death. Jesus became our propitiation or means of salvation from the power of death.

5) Why did the evening come first? The Jewish "day" began at sunset.

6) Like many other things the Bible speaks of us being a new creation spiritually, when we arise in Christ a new creation, and also as being a new creation physically when we are resurrected in glorified bodies. But prior to arising in Christ a new creation, God must put us spiritually in Christ. And He elects to put individuals in Christ based on crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.

 

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

What is this power of death that the devil has? How is it related to sin? When did the devil acquire the power of death. Was this power present on the earth lets say on the fourth day of creation? Where was the devil on the fourth day of creation?

What is being spoken of in 1 Peter 1:20 concerning before the foundation of the world? Was it not that the Lamb without spot or blemish would shed his blood (be slain) for redemption?

So you do not think God established the, "Jewish," day as evening and then morning because darkness was here before the Light came forth?

 

I am new to most of this and usually do not post. I definitely do not claim to know anymore than what has already been posted but this thread has reminded me of something I read not to long ago by Thomas J. Nettles on Augustine and this very subject. Nettles states that Augustine argued:

"Since God created everything, evil does not have an existence independent of good things. Evil is a privation of good. When all good is gone, nothing exists. Evil is only an absence of good. It is not an independent substance that invades and contaminates, but must borrow from God's good and diminish its glory. The substance in which evil resides are themselves good. Evil is removed not by eradication of a contrary nature...but by purifying of the thing itself which was thus depraved. Truth and falsehood dwell in the same tension, according to Augustine, for nothing is false except by some imitation of the true."

Again I am no expert on anything and there are many more learned individuals on here than I but I do affirm God's sovereignty in all things and also that His will is only directed towards good.

 

Please reread:

In this post you repeat the questions I answered in the prior post. This behavior is silly. Please address the answers I provided and will provide for the second time:

1) In the phrase "from the foundation of the world" what does the world refer to? The plant earth. The idea is after creation because creation created the foundation of the world.

2)The phrase "from the foundation of the world" modifies the word "written" in Revelation 13:8 according to modern scholarship. The KJV is a mistranslation. So what the verse says is names were not written [and therefore probably also written] in the Lamb's book of life after creation. Thus our names are written when God puts us spiritually in Christ. If the election of Ephesians 1:4 had been individual rather than corporate, then scripture would read "written before the foundation of the world." Not how it reads, therefore the election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate.

3) What was the darkness upon the surface of the deep in Genesis 1:2. Lots of differing opinions concerning the opening verses of Genesis, but in the minds at the time, the oceans were seen as unknown and so God acted upon what is unknown before physical light was created. Therefore darkness was upon the unknown is how I understand this verse.

4) What is the power of death? Death is separation from the living, and so when something, i.e. the wages of sin, separates us from God is has the power of death. Jesus became our propitiation or means of salvation from the power of death.

5) Why did the evening come first? The Jewish "day" began at sunset.

6) Like many other things the Bible speaks of us being a new creation spiritually, when we arise in Christ a new creation, and also as being a new creation physically when we are resurrected in glorified bodies. But prior to arising in Christ a new creation, God must put us spiritually in Christ. And He elects to put individuals in Christ based on crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.

 

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Regardless of what is amplified I do not think world there means earth. Earth
γῆ gē is earlier in the verse and I believe κόσμος kosmos has a different meaning. Scripture4all.org interlinear translates it as, system. What system. Westcott and Hort as, of a configuration. Put in order.
The heavens and earth were created. The lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world. Slain.
The earth was without form and void; tohuw bohuw There was no ordered system. Then the foundation of the world was laid in six twenty four hour days.

I will concede to what you have written concerning Rev. 13:8 however 1 Peter 1:19,20 says the same thing and isn't relative to the word written, therefore the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

There were no minds at the time other than God and some created angels and demons. I asked what the darkness was and believe I show from scripture the darkness present on the earth at that time to be Satan the devil. God was the Light.

A question. What is the power of death that appears from scripture to be in the hands of thye devil, Satan? I do not know unless it is that the devil, Satan is the source of all sin which brings death.

This may even be relative to the OP.

For sure it has nothing to do with the Jewish day. The first Jew did not come along for maybe 1000 years later. Being darkness which by scripture I believe to be Satan was present on the earth and then God the Light brought his presence to the earth and divided the two, one of which is called good, that is the light, then would not the evening, darkness and the morning, light being the first day make sense?

No comment for I do not believe it makes any difference.

IMHO The Lamb slain is the faith (that came Gal 3:22-25) that provides the gift of the Holy Spirit by which we are put in Christ by the election of God as ones believing.

 

This is an excellent point. The hard part is getting our finite human brains around the concept that evil was not created in the normal sense of the word.

 

Tim:

This is where I think a lot of confusion lies about this topic:
If he knew that the choice you made was going to be to sin, and God cannot be wrong, then it was a predetermined situation that he created.

This does not actually follow logically. God's perfect knowledge of a "future" event is not the thing which makes the event true or necessary or certain. If God knows all things future (and he does) many people believe that the necessity of his knowledge is what renders the event necessary. But this does not follow. The event is not necessary at all. If I mow my grass tomorrow, then necessarily God knows it, but if I do not, then...necessarily God knows that! But whether I do, or do not mow my grass tomorrow is not necessary...it is still contingent. IF something were to occur (such as evil) it is necessarily true that God knows it, but "What" God knows is contingent upon the free choice of a human being. The content of God's foreknowledge (what He foreknows) is logically "post" and contingent upon whatever a future act or choice or decision is.

Freedom of Volition or "Free-Will" is the key. If people are genuinely free moral agents with the power of contrary choice (and the tools to use them) such as a nature not utterly incapable of doing good, then God is not responsible for their evil actions, nor is he the author of them. If they are not, then the conclusion that God is somehow the author of sin is inescapable.

 

I agree with this 100% HoS, and this is what I have been saying all along. If this view of foreknowledge is correct, it easily answers how God could know men would sin and yet not be the author of sin.

Warning- Once you see this you will never be a Calvinist again.

 

Folks, the HOS, effort to avoid the obvious has been rebutted many times. The time travel explanation, God knows what we will choose because He acquired that knowledge from his outside of time perspective, still requires the future to exist "outside of time" for God to see. Thus the future is fixed and time travel does not solve it. The science fiction fix just moves the goal posts.

Bottom line, the view of Calvinism, God predestines all things yet is not the author of sin is logically impossible and the Arminian view that God knows all future things with certainty yet this does not predestine the future is also logically impossible. Both groups appeal to mystery, God is beyond our understanding to justify absurd man-made doctrine.

 

Not so. Your view is no different than Calvinism, that God can only foreknow what he has predestined. Thus, the logical conclusion of your view is that God is the author of sin, just as the natural logical conclusion of Calvinism. Greektim is simply coming to the logical conclusion of Calvinism. He is correct, if Calvinism is true, then God is the author of sin. Your view is just the same whether you see it or not.

You simply refuse to accept that God is SUPERNATURAL and can foreknow our free will decisions before we actually make them in time. With this view God can know men will sin and prepare a Savior, yet God is not involved or the cause of sin whatsoever.

 

Ezekiel 28:15
You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.

James 1 :
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Found tells us all where evil came from and that God created us with a free agency and God is not the author of sin, yet He created the one that evil was found in. The evil was not created in them it was found. God knowing what they would do with a free agency which it is against God will to create anything without a free agency, that is revealed by what He has made. He slain the Lamb before the foundation of the world for all that will believe in Him, turn to Him, look up at Him for their salvation will be, not maybe, but will be saved.

 

Mind Reading Booth Open for Business

It is alway interesting when someone tells me what I think but provides no quotes or logical necessity for the view.

The powers that be on this forum, i.e. Skandelon, have ruled that the only view that can be advocated is Total Omniscience. Any other view has been classified as unorthodox. So we have three well accepted views in play, but only two allowed on this forum.

1. God predestined all things but is not the author of sin. (Calvinism's illogical assertion)

2. God did not predestine all things, therefore is not the author of sin. God knowing the future with certainly does not predestine what is known will occur. (Held by some non-Calvinists and all Arminians)

3. God did not predestine all things, therefore God is not the author of sin, and we are responsible for our autonomous choices to sin. The extent of God's knowledge to allow this view to be logical rather than illogical cannot be discussed.​