Calvinists... do you have a problem with the concept that God is the ultimate...

[Winman]

My only problem with this is that w/ God's perfect knowledge and (according to your view) man's choice to love God or reject him is still predetermining. If you made a choice, and God's knowledge is perfect (free from error), and God knew before you were created what choice you would make, and God knew this before all of creation, and God cannot be wrong, and yet he decides to go for it anyways... well then God's knowledge becomes a predeterminative outcome. You could not make a different decision otherwise God would have been wrong. But since he can't be wrong, your decision was set/ordained.

This works for sin and rejection. If the capacity to choose is an act of love, and the result is that some reject, then God is still the one predetermining all of that since his foresight is perfect. God knew Adam would sin. He knew there would be rejection. Yet he goes on with creation anyways knowing that his knowledge is perfect and that the choice they make cannot change since what he knows must come to pass. Therefore, even that is a predetermined plan.

Foresight of events (nor the love means choice to accept or reject concept) does not fix the problem. It only brings you to the same conclusion... God ordained it.

Does Honda and Ford know that some folks will misuse the necessary power of their vehicles and drive 110 MPH and cause a deadly accident? YES. Does that make them responsible for our irresponsible and illegal driving? NO.

Does the law know that some of the folks they issue a driver's license to will break the laws and cause a deadly accident later? YES. Does that make the law responsible for our illegal activity? NO.

Just because God knows something will surely happen does not mean it cannot happen another way. This is a concept Calvinists cannot grasp.

If Joe decides to trust Jesus in his lifetime, this is what God foreknows. If Joe never trusts Jesus in his lifetime, this is what God foreknows. What God foreknows does not determine Joe's free will choice.

Well, you might ask why God would choose to create Joe if he knows Joe will never trust Christ? That is Joe's choice. Joe could have trusted Christ, God did not prevent him from doing so. God only foreknows Joe's choice, he does not cause it.

 

[Greektim]

Just because God knows something will surely happen does not mean it cannot happen another way. This is a concept Calvinists cannot grasp.

I want to focus on this.

I don't know how you can say this. Logically, it makes no sense. If God knows something, and God cannot be wrong, then the thing (event in this case) must come to pass exactly the way God knew it. On a horizontal level, yes there was volition. ON the vertical aspect, it was predetermined based on God's knowledge. From God's perspective, it could happen no other way. Knowing possible knowledge from God's standpoint is basically like saying God knows everything that is not going to happen and differentiates it from what will happen b/c he has foreseen it.

You are right, I cannot grasp how you don't see this as a logical necessity.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Originally Posted by Winman
Just because God knows something will surely happen does not mean it cannot happen another way. This is a concept Calvinists cannot grasp.

Really......Why not?

 

[Winman]

I want to focus on this.

I don't know how you can say this. Logically, it makes no sense. If God knows something, and God cannot be wrong, then the thing (event in this case) must come to pass exactly the way God knew it. On a horizontal level, yes there was volition. ON the vertical aspect, it was predetermined based on God's knowledge. From God's perspective, it could happen no other way. Knowing possible knowledge from God's standpoint is basically like saying God knows everything that is not going to happen and differentiates it from what will happen b/c he has foreseen it.

You are right, I cannot grasp how you don't see this as a logical necessity.

My view is not illogical. God has the supernatural ability to know precisely what choices a person will make. This does not mean God caused this choice.

For example, God knew that Judas would not believe and would betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. God did not cause this. How do we know? Because James 1:13 tells us that God never tempts any man to sin, but every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed. I read once where these 30 pieces of silver were worth approximately $250,000.00 in today's money, so this was a large and tempting sum to Judas.

Judas had every opportunity to trust in Jesus. He saw all the miracles Jesus performed, he heard his teaching. Judas could have trusted Jesus as easily as any of the other disciples.

God did not cause Judas to sin, but he absolutely knew Judas would reject Jesus. Judas's punishment is perfectly just.

When you say God can only know what he has predetermined, then you are denying his power. God can foreknow the free will choices of men.

 

[Allan]

I want to focus on this.

I don't know how you can say this. Logically, it makes no sense. If God knows something, and God cannot be wrong, then the thing (event in this case) must come to pass exactly the way God knew it. On a horizontal level, yes there was volition. ON the vertical aspect, it was predetermined based on God's knowledge. From God's perspective, it could happen no other way. Knowing possible knowledge from God's standpoint is basically like saying God knows everything that is not going to happen and differentiates it from what will happen b/c he has foreseen it.

You are right, I cannot grasp how you don't see this as a logical necessity.

The problem is that not only can Calvinists not grasp that statement but neither can those of us non-Cals. I had to read it 3 times before I realized I wasn't reading it wrong!

 

[Allan]

My view is not illogical. God has the supernatural ability to know precisely what choices a person will make. This does not mean God caused this choice.

Now this statement makes more sense.

 

[Greektim]

My view is not illogical. God has the supernatural ability to know precisely what choices a person will make. This does not mean God caused this choice.

For example, God knew that Judas would not believe and would betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. God did not cause this. How do we know? Because James 1:13 tells us that God never tempts any man to sin, but every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed. I read once where these 30 pieces of silver were worth approximately $250,000.00 in today's money, so this was a large and tempting sum to Judas.

Judas had every opportunity to trust in Jesus. He saw all the miracles Jesus performed, he heard his teaching. Judas could have trusted Jesus as easily as any of the other disciples.

God did not cause Judas to sin, but he absolutely knew Judas would reject Jesus. Judas's punishment is perfectly just.

When you say God can only know what he has predetermined, then you are denying his power. God can foreknow the free will choices of men.

Instead of engaging in more illustrations and examples, could you please address the points I raised? It is hard to raise points when you ignore counter points first.

 

[Winman]

Instead of engaging in more illustrations and examples, could you please address the points I raised? It is hard to raise points when you ignore counter points first.

I cannot concede your points because to do so would make God the author of sin.

Look, this is really not that complicated as folks make it. We know for a fact that God foretold that Judas would betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. We know Jesus specifically chose Judas to fulfill this prophecy.

At the same time, we know for a fact that God never tempts any man to sin, but every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed.

This leaves ONE ANSWER ONLY. God can foreknow the free will decisions of men. Simple.

 

[Greektim]

I cannot concede your points because to do so would make God the author of sin.

Look, this is really not that complicated as folks make it. We know for a fact that God foretold that Judas would betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. We know Jesus specifically chose Judas to fulfill this prophecy.

At the same time, we know for a fact that God never tempts any man to sin, but every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed.

This leaves ONE ANSWER ONLY. God can foreknow the free will decisions of men. Simple.

Offering counterpoints is not conceding. It is the opposite... it is taking on the points I raised before you move on to make your own points. So if you could try that... we might make some better headway.

 

[Winman]

Offering counterpoints is not conceding. It is the opposite... it is taking on the points I raised before you move on to make your own points. So if you could try that... we might make some better headway.

No, I cannot concede your points, because your only view results in God being the author of sin and therefore cannot be correct. Why? Because the scriptures say God is light and there is no darkness or iniquity in him at all.

All scripture must agree and not contradict itself. You simply refuse to believe God has the ability to foreknow man's free will decisions. Calvinism ALWAYS denies this in all of their creeds, the great error of Calvinism.

 

[Greektim]

No, I cannot concede your points, because your only view results in God being the author of sin and therefore cannot be correct. Why? Because the scriptures say God is light and there is no darkness or iniquity in him at all.

All scripture must agree and not contradict itself. You simply refuse to believe God has the ability to foreknow man's free will decisions. Calvinism ALWAYS denies this in all of their creeds, the great error of Calvinism.

Dude! I am not saying to concede my points. I am asking you to refute my points by offering counter points to my points. All you've done so far is to offer your own points w/out questioning the merits of my own. How is this so difficult?

 

[Winman]

I don't know how you can say this. Logically, it makes no sense.

If God can foreknow the free will decisions of men, it makes perfect sense. You do agree that God is capable of the supernatural don't you?

If God knows something, and God cannot be wrong, then the thing (event in this case) must come to pass exactly the way God knew it.

Correct, as God KNEW it, not predestined it. A very important distinction.

On a horizontal level, yes there was volition. ON the vertical aspect, it was predetermined based on God's knowledge.

No, it was not predetermined, it was foreknown. Now, in the case of Jesus being betrayed in the garden, Jesus giving himself up was determined, but Judas betraying Jesus was foreknown (foreknowledge).

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Notice it says Jesus was "delivered" by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God. Jesus willingly gave himself up, he told Peter he could have called angels to rescue him. At least twice before Jesus had escaped the Jews when they tried to kill him because it was not the Passover. But now Jesus allowed himself to be taken and crucified. At the same time, it was according to God's foreknowledge that Judas would betray Jesus and the soldiers would come for him. God did not cause this, Judas and the scribes and Pharisees did this of their own free will and are therefore 100% responsible.

From God's perspective, it could happen no other way. Knowing possible knowledge from God's standpoint is basically like saying God knows everything that is not going to happen and differentiates it from what will happen b/c he has foreseen it.

Perspective is not determination. Yes, God knew perfectly that Judas would betray Jesus. It was not determined that it happen that way, but it in reality did happen this way and that is what God foresaw.

You are right, I cannot grasp how you don't see this as a logical necessity.

Ridiculous, if you concede that God can supernaturally foreknow the free will decisions of men it becomes very simple and perfectly logical. Remember Occam's Razor?

 

[MorseOp]

Allow me then to philosophize a moment...

The statement "God allow sin to exist" seems to me logically only to mean that he is the ultimate cause. How else can you explain away God's perfect knowledge and foresight of all events and choice AND YET he creates it anyways? Or to say it another way, if evil was just an effect of a volitional capacity for man to reject or accept God (not my belief btw), and God knew absolutely before creation that man would reject, then that rejection was a predetermined thing that must happen since God cannot be wrong.

So to allow sin to exist is just another way to get to the idea that God predetermined it and went forward with it anyways.

or

You could say that God allowed sin to exist via Satan. And yet the same option for Satan applies as above. God created Satan knowing perfectly what would happen and therefore it must happen. Plus, the cause of Satan is God, and therefore it could be said that God is a secondary albeit ultimate cause of sin.

Tim,

What we must not do is arrive at conclusions that scripture does not support. We know that God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. We know that God is holy and righteous. God is without sin and His motives cannot be impugned. God is also sovereign. Of course He knew sin would enter the world. Sin entered the world without God being culpable. That is an immutable fact. Instead of trying to decide whether there is an author of sin, and who that author is, we must first agree that scripture exonerates God from being that author. We are then left with a mystery. I think part of reason for that mystery is that sinful, finite creatures (us) are trying to understand an infinite, holy God.

 

[Iconoclast]

webdog

First, that text does not prove anything other that He was in control of the situation.

I think the text is there for a reason, and tells us more than God was just overseeing the events...maintaining control...as a spectator.You are not suggesting that are you??? If you set out to fight and resist each text....you will not come to truth on this....

How about here:

King James Version (KJV)


21 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

You still continue to hold on to this fallacy? Just because someone doesn't agree doesn't mean they don't understand. Scores of godly men throughout history that disagree with your doctrine that understand it. You really need to give this argument a rest.

Because a godly man does not come to truth in one area does not mean he is not a godly man. Each and everyone of us have flaws and defects.

I have learned most about sanctification, fron Ryle, and Baxter....who were not fully onboard with the 5pts.....However.....you go with the majority unless you find wrong verses being offered.

As this very thread shows, they will say it is not possible (some will) while denying free will (such as yourself) which is nothing more than a contradiction.

There is no contradiction ...just a place where we have a marked difference in understanding.

The Bible does not teach God is controlling every situation...it teaches He is in control

God controls every molecule, atom, and particle in His creation:
Do not try and drift off topic.

Determinism is not truth.

None of us teaches this ....this is just an attempt to avoid where scripture takes us.

Again, pure question begging. Jesus did not teach determinism, hence it cannot be truth

.

Jesus taught all 5 pts. We see it,and believe.The debate fallacy idea will not make a scriptural case for you. I think that if you or others here had a scriptural case we would see it.....but ....we know it is not appearing anytime soon.

 

[Iconoclast]

HOS

No calvinist believes God authors sin.....no biblical calvinist

 

[convicted1]

HOS

No calvinist believes God authors sin.....no biblical calvinist

I agree with this. The hyper-Cal's go too far. I pray that the OP isn't heading in this direction.......

 

[Iconoclast]

Willis,

Before coming on BB ...I never heard any professed christian saying such a thing.Any such statement always came from agnostics or mentally challenged people.
Even those who do not agree doctrinally should not go down this dead end path!

 

[convicted1]

Willis,

Before coming on BB ...I never heard any professed christian saying such a thing.Any such statement always came from agnostics or mentally challenged people.
Even those who do not agree doctrinally should not go down this dead end path!

Go down to the "Other denominations" forum, and you'll find a "dandy" who states that God is the cause of evil. How he is allowed to stay "onboard" is befuzzling to me.

 

[Iconoclast]

Go down to the "Other denominations" forum, and you'll find a "dandy" who states that God is the cause of evil. How he is allowed to stay "onboard" is befuzzling to me.

Brother,
It is a sad day when professed believers can speak as the devil about our Great and Holy God. To me...that is like a theological third rail.
We have enough enemies with the world, the flesh and the devil...to have people say these things.:tonofbricks:

 

[Greektim]

I agree with this. The hyper-Cal's go too far. I pray that the OP isn't heading in this direction.......

I don't know where I'm headed. I am just trying to be honest and seek help from different viewpoints. I'm not stating what I confess or believe, but only where I see DoG taking me. However, as I've shown already, I also see a non-Cal view go the same place. I feel the tension and wrestle with it. No matter what, I will not confess a view that in my mind will stain or tarnish God's holiness. That is an unequivocal that I will not bend on. My hope to find a plausible way to understand this.