Calvinists... do you have a problem with the concept that God is the ultimate...

[Iconoclast]

On this very thread you see both...yes, God is the author of sin, and those that say God does determine everything... but not sin, which is intellectually dishonest.

This is a denial of the truth of the christian faith. Sin is here.It is here for a reason that is under God's control. God does not sin.God is not the "author of sin".He is Holy and sinless. To say otherwise is to blaspheme His Holy name.
To say anything happens that God does not have control over is serious error.

You cannot leave a doctrine that you do not understand to begin with.

 

[Greektim]

You wouldn't believe how close you are to joining the ranks of us who left this doctrine

its refreshing to see you think this through, both the implications and problems with determinism. On this very thread you see both...yes, God is the author of sin, and those that say God does determine everything... but not sin, which is intellectually dishonest. You are a stone throw away from realizing the "u" , "i" and "l" as defined by calvinism are false, and the house of cards collapses on itself.

Actually, the more I think through it, the more I am convinced of the doctrines of grace; even if God is the ultimate cause of sin.

This is a denial of the truth of the christian faith. Sin is here.It is here for a reason that is under God's control. God does not sin.God is not the "author of sin".He is Holy and sinless. To say otherwise is to blaspheme His Holy name.
To say anything happens that God does not have control over is serious error.

You cannot leave a doctrine that you do not understand to begin with.

Icon... do you see a difference in saying God is the author of sin and God is the ultimate cause of sin???

I am enjoying this dialogue. This is one of those rare occasions here that it has been a discussion and not a debate. Stimulating!

 

[Bronconagurski]

This is a denial of the truth of the christian faith. Sin is here.It is here for a reason that is under God's control. God does not sin.God is not the "author of sin".He is Holy and sinless. To say otherwise is to blaspheme His Holy name.
To say anything happens that God does not have control over is serious error.

You cannot leave a doctrine that you do not understand to begin with.

If God doesn't cause people to sin, and he does not, then people choose to sin. Isn't that free will? Just saying.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No... I don't think so. It is a way to "get God off the hook" and trying to nuance an understanding that makes it ok for God to be the ultimate source of sin without admitting as much. I would rather people simply state what their beliefs in God logically take them to. In this case, God's sovereignty and preordination seems to point to one logical conclusion... it all comes from him and was designed by him to fulfill his purpose.

Then say what you mean, God is the Creator of Sin, & while your at it claim that there is no original sin -- then you will be welcomed with open arms for certain. We have all seen that slide before. Be my guest & join the ranks.

Brother....I have lived through earthly tragety with the loss of most of my family including my child. I have watched people die slow deaths, so I have lived a difficult life & I have sat in the ash pit & had people tell me to curse God & die.....but when you read this, hopefully the answers come.

Job 38 (New International Version)

Job 38

New International Version (NIV)
The Lord Speaks

38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?

12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!

22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?

31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?

34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?

39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?

 

[Greektim]

Then say what you mean, God is the Creator of Sin, & while your at it claim that there is no original sin -- then you will be welcomed with open arms for certain. We have all seen that slide before. Be my guest & join the ranks.

Brother....I have lived through earthly tragety with the loss of most of my family including my child. I have watched people die slow deaths, so I have lived a difficult life & I have sat in the ash pit & had people tell me to curse God & die.....but when you read this, hopefully the answers come.

Job 38 (New International Version)

Job 38

New International Version (NIV)
The Lord Speaks

38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?

12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!

22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?

31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?

34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?

39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?

Hey... I admit I am wrestling with the tension. I am just trying to face it as well.

Shall not the judge of the universe do what is right/just (Gen. 18:25)

 

[kyredneck]

I've heard it preached and am in agreement, 'When all this is over and done with, when time is no more, every creature in the universe will know there can be only one will.'

 

[Aaron]

Because God is good, he must create us with free will, and free will makes it necessary that sin be possible. Without free will and choice, there can be no such thing as love, but choice by necessity includes the possibility of sin, it cannot be avoided.

Arbitrary presuppostions all.

God "must" not do anything, and He did not do as you describe above. God cannot sin, and God is love. At once the erroneous nature of your premises is manifest.

In the end, when we are manifest as the sons of God, sin and death will be no more. There will be no more possiblity of sin. We are more than was Adam. Adam was created by God corruptible. We are born of God incorruptible. Adam was not a partaker of the divine nature. We are.

The idea of free will is antithetical to love.

 

[SovereignMercy]

11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
12 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah. Job 1

5 But put forth thy hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
6 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thy hand; only spare his life. Job 2

Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: Lu 22:31

Anyone ever wonder if there was a dialog such as these prior to the fall concerning Adam and Eve? I believe there was.

It's would be good if you and all of the posters on this forum would spend half the time considering the truth of the following passages as you do speculating about what isn't revealed and worshipping the man-made god known as Free-Will. Of course I realize we have already been told that in the last days men would be lovers of self rather than lovers of God.

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?" And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.

 

[Greektim]

Is there a distinction between saying God is the (1) ultimate cause of sin (2) author of sin & (3) the designer or preordainer of sin?

If God preordained sin, he basically designed it so to speak and would certainly be the ultimate cause. It would also seem to be synonymous with the concept of authorship. To design something is to draw it up.

 

[kyredneck]

Hey... I admit I am wrestling with the tension. I am just trying to face it as well.

Shall not the judge of the universe do what is right/just (Gen. 18:25)

1 Jehovah, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty; Neither do I exercise myself in great matters, Or in things too wonderful for me.
2 Surely I have stilled and quieted my soul; Like a weaned child with his mother, Like a weaned child is my soul within me.
3 O Israel, hope in Jehovah From this time forth and for evermore. Ps 131

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain unto it. Ps 139

 

[Greektim]

1 Jehovah, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty; Neither do I exercise myself in great matters, Or in things too wonderful for me.
2 Surely I have stilled and quieted my soul; Like a weaned child with his mother, Like a weaned child is my soul within me.
3 O Israel, hope in Jehovah From this time forth and for evermore. Ps 131

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain unto it. Ps 139

Are you saying this is one of those mysteries that we cannot fathom? I have a hard time with that considering that many places in Scripture bear out this fact that God brought evil about. See the OP for a couple of examples. Lamentations 3:38 is another good one: Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?

 

[kyredneck]

It's would be good if you and all of the posters on this forum would spend half the time considering the truth of the following passages as you do speculating about what isn't revealed and worshipping the man-made god known as Free-Will. Of course I realize we have already been told that in the last days men would be lovers of self rather than lovers of God.

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?" And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.

You've a bad habit of quoting scripture without providing reference to book, chapter, verse, or version.

I'm no 'freewiller', and I'm beginning to question the validity of your moniker.

 

[webdog]

This is a denial of the truth of the christian faith. Sin is here.It is here for a reason that is under God's control. God does not sin.God is not the "author of sin".He is Holy and sinless. To say otherwise is to blaspheme His Holy name.
To say anything happens that God does not have control over is serious error.

You cannot leave a doctrine that you do not understand to begin with.

Being sovereign means being in control, not controlling. When one comes to this realization they understand your doctrine, and at that point either continue believing A. God authors sin, B. My doctrine is quite inconsistent in understanding God's sovereignty, or C. Get out of Dodge.

Which camp are you still in?

 

[webdog]

If God doesn't cause people to sin, and he does not, then people choose to sin. Isn't that free will? Just saying.

Exactly...but pride keeps many from admitting this.

 

[webdog]

Actually, the more I think through it, the more I am convinced of the doctrines of grace; even if God is the ultimate cause of sin.

Then you adhere to the intellectual dishonesty portion of your doctrine? Why?

Icon... do you see a difference in saying God is the author of sin and God is the ultimate cause of sin???

I am enjoying this dialogue. This is one of those rare occasions here that it has been a discussion and not a debate. Stimulating!

What is the difference? If I allow my son to make his own decisions and he sins, did I author his sin? Am I the ultimate cause of his sin?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hey... I admit I am wrestling with the tension. I am just trying to face it as well.

Shall not the judge of the universe do what is right/just (Gen. 18:25)

Then Tim, let us face it together with both Scripture first & then reason.

1st scripture, shall we.....

James 1:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now Reason:

My struggling Brother Tim; to say God is the author of sin states something that does not fully and accurately represent the real belief of any believer in regard to predestination; they are contrary to the teachings of the Scriptures, and tend to the pagan doctrine of fatalism--that I harp on all the time So instead of glorifying, they dishonor God by staining His holiness, the most glorious attribute of His character.

It not only stains the holiness, but it also belittles the wisdom and the power of God to say that He can govern His creatures only by instigating and compelling them to sin; it represents Him as a mere Puppeteer that control's man by pulling certain select strings, instead of an incomparable Sovereign, who perfectly foresees and perfectly controls even their own abominable wickedness to the manifestation of His glory - who can and does allow them, within predetermined bounds, to go their own sinful way, and carry out their own sinful purposes, and who is wise enough and strong enough to make even their sins, the wrath of man which worketh not the righteousness of God, redound to His praise ( James 1:20)

 

[kyredneck]

Are you saying this is one of those mysteries that we cannot fathom?

As far as I'm concerned, yes. I agree with the Psalmist, "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, it is high, I cannot attain unto it".

...and the prophet:

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55

You mentioned 'wrestling with the tension'; is this tension within you (I don't think so)? Or does it come from without, from the naysayers that reply back to God, those who will not accept the truth of passages such as Ro 9:18?

I have a hard time with that considering that many places in Scripture bear out this fact that God brought evil about. See the OP for a couple of examples. Lamentations 3:38 is another good one: Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?

IMO, the 'evil' in these passages are in reference to troubles/hard times and not to hatred of or rebellion from God.

 

[Greektim]

As far as I'm concerned, yes. I agree with the Psalmist, "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, it is high, I cannot attain unto it".

...and the prophet:

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55

You mentioned 'wrestling with the tension'; is this tension within you (I don't think so)? Or does it come from without, from the naysayers that reply back to God, those who will not accept the truth of passages such as Ro 9:18?



IMO, the 'evil' in these passages are in reference to troubles/hard times and not to hatred of or rebellion from God.

That's is a possible interpretation... but even the hard times and troubles came about b/c of the fall. Therefore, it could still be implied that God is behind it all in some sense.

 

[Van]

Another thread with 4 pages of shuck and jive. Calvinism claims God predestines all things, whatsoever comes to pass, which means He predestines our sins, making Him the author of sin. Now to avoid this logical necessity that simply say He predestines all things but is not the author of sin. So Calvinism rests on a logical absurdity.

For God not to be the author of sin, but rather simply allowing sin, mankind must be responsible for their sins, hence sins of autonomous choice, rather than sins compelled by predestination. And a corollary to this is that if God predestines a sin for some purpose, i.e. something if we chose to do it would be ungodly, then God's justice would not allow God to punish the person for that "sin." Thus, there is no darkness if God at all, yet for His purpose He can create circumstances to "test" individuals. The difference between test and tempt (same word in the Greek) is the purpose of the perpetrator, God for a godly purpose tests, but Satan, the World and our Flesh tempt for ungodly purposes.