Calvinists... do you have a problem with the concept that God is the ultimate...

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That's is a possible interpretation... but even the hard times and troubles came about b/c of the fall. Therefore, it could still be implied that God is behind it all in some sense.

OK Tim so let me be frank....I see your signature state that your a Supralapsarian & Im not sure how you came by that but you must have given some hard thought to it, right. Are you now indicating that you are gravitating toward Hypercalvinism? Be honest!

Speaking for myself....When I am struggling with these type of spiritual wrangling....with assurance, with guilt, with shame, I invariably go to Jesus and I am comforted by my faith that Jesus Christ died for me.

As far as Job is concerned (we discussed this earlier, remember).... did he ever receive a straight answer from God? :smilewinkgrin: but the story of Job forces a greater truth. When Job's life is being taken away from him Tim, he can say what his wife suggests, that is "Curse God" / typical arguments from his wifes prospective right. And like all good hubbies, he contemplates that for a moment then asks, "God, why fifty years? why did I deserve anything?

See thats the attitude of recognizing grace! See its got allot to do with our perception. "Naked i came into the world & naked I will leave" -- (Job 1:21). So what do you have Tim that has not been given to you? Isn't it all Grace...all given... from beginning to end. There is nothing we deserve but probably death.

You will see this as you age...when you loose friends, family--then you can curse God & say, Why did this happen....why were they taken from me. Or you can say, Why were they given to me at all? Why did I deserve that moment of those folks love, why did I deserve a second of this life? God is the creator & I am the creature. You are blessed & if you take the road that blessed Job did, I doubt whether you will remain vexed.
But oh how grateful! :love2:

God Bless you, today & always Brother.

 

[Greektim]

Then you adhere to the intellectual dishonesty portion of your doctrine? Why?

I'm sorry... I missed the part where I am not being intellectually honest. I am admitting that the logical result of the doctrines of grace would teach that God preordained sin and thus is the ultimate cause of it.

What is the difference? If I allow my son to make his own decisions and he sins, did I author his sin? Am I the ultimate cause of his sin?

If we apply this logic back to God ("God allowed his people to make their own decision and they sin, did God author sin?") then you still come away with God being the ultimate cause. That is because God's knowledge is perfect. If he knew that the choice you made was going to be to sin, and God cannot be wrong, then it was a predetermined situation that he created. Or God can be wrong or his doesn't know everything absolutely.

 

[Greektim]

Then Tim, let us face it together with both Scripture first & then reason.

1st scripture, shall we.....

James 1:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man

I've addressed Jms 1:13 already. I'm not talking about God enticing us. I am talking about God ordaining and scripting a world where sin is a necessity.

As far as Scripture is concerned, I think there are many passages if taken literally actually teach that God created sin.

 

[Greektim]

Now Reason:

My struggling Brother Tim; to say God is the author of sin states something that does not fully and accurately represent the real belief of any believer in regard to predestination; they are contrary to the teachings of the Scriptures, and tend to the pagan doctrine of fatalism--that I harp on all the time So instead of glorifying, they dishonor God by staining His holiness, the most glorious attribute of His character.

It not only stains the holiness, but it also belittles the wisdom and the power of God to say that He can govern His creatures only by instigating and compelling them to sin; it represents Him as a mere Puppeteer that control's man by pulling certain select strings, instead of an incomparable Sovereign, who perfectly foresees and perfectly controls even their own abominable wickedness to the manifestation of His glory - who can and does allow them, within predetermined bounds, to go their own sinful way, and carry out their own sinful purposes, and who is wise enough and strong enough to make even their sins, the wrath of man which worketh not the righteousness of God, redound to His praise ( James 1:20)

Thanks for the kind responses btw...

What you bring out certainly is where the tension lies. How can this be? Logically, it seems God is the ultimate cause. Morally, how can he be holy?

 

[Greektim]

OK Tim so let me be frank....I see your signature state that your a Supralapsarian & Im not sure how you came by that but you must have given some hard thought to it, right. Are you now indicating that you are gravitating toward Hypercalvinism? Be honest!

I am extremely evangelistic, so I would not classify myself as a hypercal. It all depends how we define our terms I guess.

Speaking for myself....When I am struggling with these type of spiritual wrangling....with assurance, with guilt, with shame, I invariably go to Jesus and I am comforted by my faith that Jesus Christ died for me.

As far as Job is concerned (we discussed this earlier, remember).... did he ever receive a straight answer from God? :smilewinkgrin: but the story of Job forces a greater truth. When Job's life is being taken away from him Tim, he can say what his wife suggests, that is "Curse God" / typical arguments from his wifes prospective right. And like all good hubbies, he contemplates that for a moment then asks, "God, why fifty years? why did I deserve anything?

See thats the attitude of recognizing grace! See its got allot to do with our perception. "Naked i came into the world & naked I will leave" -- (Job 1:21). So what do you have Tim that has not been given to you? Isn't it all Grace...all given... from beginning to end. There is nothing we deserve but probably death.

You will see this as you age...when you loose friends, family--then you can curse God & say, Why did this happen....why were they taken from me. Or you can say, Why were they given to me at all? Why did I deserve that moment of those folks love, why did I deserve a second of this life? God is the creator & I am the creature. You are blessed & if you take the road that blessed Job did, I doubt whether you will remain vexed.
But oh how grateful! :love2:

God Bless you, today & always Brother.

I appreciate your heart here. This is lovely. I too have experienced tremendous pain and loss. And God has taught me not to ask why but how... how is God to be glorified in this?

But that is not really the point I am wrestling with. I can understand how a good God can allow bad things to happen to me. I just want to take that to its end and say that if God is in control of everything, good or bad, then he is the ultimate cause of it all. At the same time I want to uphold the beauty of his righteousness and holiness. This is my struggle. I will not give up the second. But the first also seems to make sense. So now I try to square the two in my mind.

 

[MorseOp]

No... I don't think so. It is a way to "get God off the hook" and trying to nuance an understanding that makes it ok for God to be the ultimate source of sin without admitting as much. I would rather people simply state what their beliefs in God logically take them to. In this case, God's sovereignty and preordination seems to point to one logical conclusion... it all comes from him and was designed by him to fulfill his purpose.

This thread is not on the framers of the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, but I will say that any serious study of these men will reveal that they were not cop outs. They had a high view of God's holiness because Scripture has a high view of God's holiness. A holy God cannot sin, nor can He be guilty of sin by association.

 

[MorseOp]

If God doesn't cause people to sin, and he does not, then people choose to sin. Isn't that free will? Just saying.

People choose to sin because they are born sinners. They under bondage to sin. They freely sin, but they are also incapable of doing anything else. Even the "good" they do is tainted by sin.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am extremely evangelistic, so I would not classify myself as a hypercal. It all depends how we define our terms I guess.


I appreciate your heart here. This is lovely. I too have experienced tremendous pain and loss. And God has taught me not to ask why but how... how is God to be glorified in this?

But that is not really the point I am wrestling with. I can understand how a good God can allow bad things to happen to me. I just want to take that to its end and say that if God is in control of everything, good or bad, then he is the ultimate cause of it all. At the same time I want to uphold the beauty of his righteousness and holiness. This is my struggle. I will not give up the second. But the first also seems to make sense. So now I try to square the two in my mind.

Wow....Tim your the pastor soooooo.....shoe drops. LOL!

Lets be honest, we all struggle with this. I agree with my friend KtyRedneck.....I dont have those answers & I seriously dont believe any human truly does. My big sister contracted a virus & a fever at 2 yrs old which left her severely brain damaged ...they diagnosed it as CP which caused my Mom to have a nervous breakdown. When she recovered she put her heart and soul into taking care of Barbara & prayed every day. Tim she had to feed her, clothe her, wash her, diaper her, carry her, nurse her when she was sick....in short everything. I saw it drain my mother of everything but one thing remained.....LOVE, oh & devotion. Then my father died at 39 yrs old leaving her with a house (with mortgage), my sister (who she had to take care of every day) & me & my baby brother. It was a challenge from a money prospective & all the rest that goes along. In the end I asked her if she ever questioned God or his motives & the answer was yes ....but she never gave up hope & her faith never wavered. And the times we spent were memorable.

So you tell me pastor.......did God do those horrible things to my family for a reason? Why? Only He knows.....so if you figure it out you look me up & let me know....OK?

Seriously dude....every day you breathe you should give the glory to Him who has given you life (whatever your circumstance). Also put your faith & trust in him & what else can I say.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This thread is not on the framers of the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, but I will say that any serious study of these men will reveal that they were not cop outs. They had a high view of God's holiness because Scripture has a high view of God's holiness. A holy God cannot sin, nor can He be guilty of sin by association.

MP....when I was studying the 1689 (& also contrasting it to the Westminster Confessions) the pastor doing the study reviewed a very comprehensive list of those responsible for the Confessions content. Indeed, there were some very accomplished men & extremely committed to their task. Could you supply those?

& frankly, I was pretty shocked by the Brothers commentary that it was a cop-out.

 

[Winman]

Arbitrary presuppostions all.

God "must" not do anything, and He did not do as you describe above. God cannot sin, and God is love. At once the erroneous nature of your premises is manifest.

Absurd, the scriptures clearly show that God desires we choose him freely;

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

God does not force anyone to obey or serve him, he allows all men to make a true choice whether they will willingly serve him or not.

In the end, when we are manifest as the sons of God, sin and death will be no more. There will be no more possiblity of sin. We are more than was Adam. Adam was created by God corruptible. We are born of God incorruptible. Adam was not a partaker of the divine nature. We are.

You have no idea what heaven will be like. John in the book of Revelation bowed down to an angel by mistake, so it is obvious that error can occur in heaven.

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

I am not saying we will sin in heaven, but it may not be absolutely perfect, we might still make mistakes. The leaves of the tree of life are said to be for healing, so disease or injury might occur there.

All I am saying is that you have no idea exactly what it will be like in heaven, and neither do I.

The idea of free will is antithetical to love.

This statement is plain dumb. Did you club your wife over the head and drag her into your house like the proverbial caveman? NO, of course not. Any man wants his wife to be his wife because she freely desires to be so. Only someone with serious issues would try to force someone to love them.

 

[MorseOp]

MP....when I was studying the 1689 (& also contrasting it to the Westminster Confessions) the pastor doing the study reviewed a very comprehensive list of those responsible for the Confessions content. Indeed, there were some very accomplished men & extremely committed to their task. Could you supply those?

& frankly, I was pretty shocked by the Brothers commentary that it was a cop-out.

The first one I will mention is Benjamin Keach, who wrote Keach's Baptist Catechism.

 

[Van]

No matter how hard you flail away on a dead horse, it just sits there like monument to absurdity. I see the "sinners freely choose to sin" chestnut being posted yet again. Ludicrous! If we can only choose between this sin or that sin, we have no choice but to choose to sin. Therefore we are compelled by God to sin. Thus He becomes the author of sin. Petty simple really. To be a Calvinist you must embrace the ludicrous. The very idea that being able to choose between this sin and that sin yet have no choice but to choose sin makes us responsible for choosing to sin is ludicrous. Yet the premise is posted and reposted by Calvinists of all stripes.

 

[Greektim]

This thread is not on the framers of the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, but I will say that any serious study of these men will reveal that they were not cop outs. They had a high view of God's holiness because Scripture has a high view of God's holiness. A holy God cannot sin, nor can He be guilty of sin by association.

Let me clarify. I don't mean to say that either confession or those who constructed it are cop outs. I'm just saying that the idea that secondary causation or promixate causation is not a great solution to the problem in my mind. Its like admitting the outcome but without all the moral implications. It is simply giving a softening philosophical blow. It is a good answer, but it still implies the same thing I am implying.

 

[Greektim]

Wow....Tim your the pastor soooooo.....shoe drops. LOL!

Lets be honest, we all struggle with this. I agree with my friend KtyRedneck.....I dont have those answers & I seriously dont believe any human truly does. My big sister contracted a virus & a fever at 2 yrs old which left her severely brain damaged ...they diagnosed it as CP which caused my Mom to have a nervous breakdown. When she recovered she put her heart and soul into taking care of Barbara & prayed every day. Tim she had to feed her, clothe her, wash her, diaper her, carry her, nurse her when she was sick....in short everything. I saw it drain my mother of everything but one thing remained.....LOVE, oh & devotion. Then my father died at 39 yrs old leaving her with a house (with mortgage), my sister (who she had to take care of every day) & me & my baby brother. It was a challenge from a money prospective & all the rest that goes along. In the end I asked her if she ever questioned God or his motives & the answer was yes ....but she never gave up hope & her faith never wavered. And the times we spent were memorable.

So you tell me pastor.......did God do those horrible things to my family for a reason? Why? Only He knows.....so if you figure it out you look me up & let me know....OK?

Seriously dude....every day you breathe you should give the glory to Him who has given you life (whatever your circumstance). Also put your faith & trust in him & what else can I say.

Im not sure how to interpret your tone here. I'm going to assume the best.

To answer your questions... yes God did those things for a reason? Why specifically is not info I'm privy to. But generally speaking we can say for his own divine purposes and to display his grace, love, and righteousness w/out the pain we would only be able to experience a small fraction of that.

But I agree... everyday is a gracious gift from God for which I thank him and to which I glorify him. He provides the faith necessary for me to serve him.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Im not sure how to interpret your tone here. I'm going to assume the best.

.

you do know the old adage about what happens when you assume dont you Tim.....LOL

Ass U Me

Surely you know my intentions were honorable.:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

If God doesn't cause people to sin, and he does not, then people choose to sin. Isn't that free will? Just saying.

Men have a will.Men make choices. Scripture refers to men as self willed.

The will is bound by the nature...it is never...."free" of the nature.IN heaven we will not be ..."free" to sin. God frees us to serve Him.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Men have a will.Men make choices. Scripture refers to men as self willed.

The will is bound by the nature...it is never...."free" of the nature.IN heaven we will not be ..."free" to sin. God frees us to serve Him.

Good answer brother:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Actually, the more I think through it, the more I am convinced of the doctrines of grace; even if God is the ultimate cause of sin.



Icon... do you see a difference in saying God is the author of sin and God is the ultimate cause of sin???

I am enjoying this dialogue. This is one of those rare occasions here that it has been a discussion and not a debate. Stimulating!

GT,

God created everything.Magnetic fields, electricity, solar activity, Gravity.

If a person climbs up the side of a mountain, looses his grip or footing....and lands facedown on the rocks900ft down...and splashed all over the rocks...

Is God the cause,because He ordained gravitational force???Or maybe the climber should have stayed on level ground????

This helps me understand the issue:
http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf

enjoy:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Greektim]

GT,

God created everything.Magnetic fields, electricity, solar activity, Gravity.

If a person climbs up the side of a mountain, looses his grip or footing....and lands facedown on the rocks900ft down...and splashed all over the rocks...

Is God the cause,because He ordained gravitational force???Or maybe the climber should have stayed on level ground????

This helps me understand the issue:
http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf

enjoy:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Well in your scenario... God is a cause via secondary causation.

Illustrations only go so far. Use an issue of morality that would be more comparable.

 

[Winman]

Greektim, perhaps I can explain my view like this;

Probably every member here at BB is a parent. I have 8 children myself. Did my wife and I know that our children would sin when they came into this world? Absolutely! Does this mean we planned or ordained they should sin? NO. We have never wanted any of our children to sin even once, although we knew perfectly well they all would. You might say we had foreknowledge.

Now, every Christian parent is taking a chance when they bring a child into the world, as they know there is the real possibility that their child could reject Jesus and spend eternity in hell. Is this not so? Yet, we all choose to have children, in fact, Christians tend to have more children than non-Christians.

No Christian parent really believes that a child is predestined to be saved or lost. No, every Christian parent believes they can bring up their child in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and be saved. And most Christians will tell you their children are saved.

Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

The fact that most children of believers also become believers refutes Unconditional Election. If God saves a child because their parent(s) are believers, this would be conditional salvation.

No, all Christian parents believe they can bring up their children to believe in Jesus, and this is in fact what usually happens. Not always, but generally this is true.

God brings us into the world the same way. There is the chance we might accept Jesus or reject him, the choice is ours to make. God never planned or intended us to sin, just as we never planned or intended our children to sin, though God knows we will all sin, just as we all knew our children will sin. The hope is, that we can teach our children to fear the Lord and they will choose him. The Lord also hopes that he may persuade a man to trust in Christ.