Featured Why the Doctrines of Grace is not Determinism

I am going to attempt here to discuss the OP.

I am not sure how you are defining determinism because I'm sure there are a few ways to look at it.

A modern dictionary defines it:

1a. a theory or doctrine that acts of the will, occurrences in nature, or social or psychological phenomena are causually determined by preceding events or natural laws.

1b. a belief in predestination

2. the quality or state of being determined

I have been labeled for having a set of beliefs that fall under this category (coming from a DoG type of theology). The definitions above are broad btw. I usually run away from be accused of believing in a type of determinism because it sounds bad , but maybe I do fall under that category. I am not a hyper calvinist, so I don't know that determinism directly relates to hyper-calvinism or not.

It seems that Calvinistic theology leads to believing that God is not only "able" to control and to not control all events but "does" control all events from single cell reproduction to the workings of galaxies. In this includes all aspects of human choices being under the control of God, both good and evil. It is not puppetry or robotics, but is more like the potter over the clay . We can't deny that each human has an individual will that seems to be part of life, but that will falls under the control of God's ultimate will. Therefore all choices of men and animals, including things outside of human and animal life are under the control of God. In other words our decisions that we make are not free from God's decisions. We make no decisions contrary to God's. When we sin, He does not tempt or sin Himself, but has complete control over our error and uses all of it as exactly planned from His predetermined will. The how's I will not answer, but I believe that all good and bad I do is according to His purpose. I don't get relief from sin by believing this, I don't feel its ok to sin, nor do I blame God for my sin. Yet, I know that when I sin I am not out of His control and through constant repentance all things work together for good because God is ultimately in control (In this sense, if you wish, you can blame Him). The comfort sets in for me knowing that nothing is outside of His control. He is even in control of my lost friends, family, and people around me. I could reason this out a lot further and admit that there are tough "how" questions.

With that said, I think determinism is a label given to Calvinists at times because of how we view God exercising His sovereignty. This is seen in how we see God being highly active and involved in all things according to His purpose.

 

Exactly. Hyper-Calvinists were known as CONSISTENT Calvinists in the past. As you rightly said, they are simply those Calvinists who take the doctrine to it's logical conclusions.

I said over 3 years ago that Hyper-Calvinists were simply consistent Calvinists, and that Moderate or plain ol' Calvinists are those who are ashamed and embarrassed by their doctrine. I still believe this to be true.

 

I think this is how a hyper Calvinist comes to be a hyper Calvinist, not a Biblical Calvinist . Let me clarify the difference in the hyper Calvinist and a Biblical Calvinist. A hyper Calvinist falls prey to his philosophy, therefore he takes something that is true (God being in control) and tries to understand that in his own reasoning. A biblical Calvinist takes the same truth from Scripture and continues in Scripture to understand the beauty of God's control and how that works with our wills given by God.

So, why do I evangelize, pray, do good, glorify God, love God, or any of that? He surely needs none of it and lived forever before us without it? If I followed my philosophy outside of the Bible I would not have a relationship with God because I would see Him as independent and ultimately miss the point in His blessing us. Logically it makes no sense when I take it to the end, but He desires relationship with us so all I do listed above is found in Scripture. In the same way a Calvinist can believe God is sovereign (exercising sovereignty in their definition) and still be obedient willingly through it.

 

ZRS: Your post wasn't addressed to ME...so forgive me if I rejoinder it, but, I am failing to comprehend some of what you are saying here:

 

Kind of a joke, if you are not going to be consistent with your own belief system, why do you expect others to?

The problem has always been and will always be that opponents to Calvinism claim it makes God the author of sin. And if a Calvinist is consistent, they will agree. Here is what Vincent Cheung writes;

At least this fellow is consistent. He flat out says that Calvinism teaches God is the author of sin and says, "So what?".

Now, I think this is horrendous, but I respect this fellow, and I think I could have an honest debate with this fellow. But it is impossible to debate with an inconsistent Calvinst, because they constantly use illogical and nonsensical arguments.

That is because their view IS illogical and nonsensical, neither of which can be truth.

 

I have an ever-lasting appreciation for the "Hyper-Calvinist"...(This doesn't necessarily imply the one who refuses to evangelize or engage in missions)...But, otherwise, they are the only intellectually honest form of Calvinist which exist IMO...This explains why I have such appreciation for the likes of "Luke24/7"....a truly intellectually honest man....and strangely, he doesn't harbor the hate of Arminians that so many in-consistent Calvinists do..
Go figure.

 

Your man is absolutely an intellectually honest person, and yes....you could actually debate him, and he would probably give reasonable and fair responses to any argument you would make. He isn't the ONLY consistent Calvinist in the universe....I respect some others like Hoeksema.

I think that Calvin himself was somewhat inconsistent...but, his followers, like Beza, held no inconsistencies like Calvin did. For all he was worth, and smart as he indeed was...Calvin too often spoke out of both sides of his mouth. Beza held no such illusions, and neither did most of the immediate followers of the movement. The initial Calvinists were no more the post-modern "Neo-Calvinists" you see posting on threads like this one than the man in the moon.

They knew what they taught...and they simply taught that God simply DOESN'T "Love" a lot of people...end of discussion...But, they didn't devise stupidities like there are different "types" of love like the
1.) "Love" which digs damning people to hell
and
2.) the "Love" which dis-likes damning certain people (only) to hell.....

Oh, and they are BOTH sanely believed in...

How do retards like John Piper even get paid????

 

I always fall into debates with my non-cal roomate and almost everytime we discuss anything its all a big misunderstanding because he thinks I am not consistent or vice versa. By this he is not worried about the bible, but more concerned with defending his view (I must be humble here to), so when he disagrees with mine he tries to "reason it logically" to its end. So when he sees calvinism it isn't biblical because he doesnt look for it biblically, but reasons it logically to its end... hyper calvinisms error in no evangelism for example.

So what you might want to be consistent may not fit your idea of consistent, but may actually be consistent and true. The issue is that you may not be looking from the right angle and already have your mind made up. I am not against consistency and logic, but I am against errors I have made and other make all the time by not listening to the Bible (not pointing any fingers) and trying to reason it all out. Our coming to our theological conclusions is miraculous really because we dont realize how hard it really is to understand the Bible. I thank God for seeing certain things (If its not to arrogant to make that statement). I dont expect you or my roomate or even blind Calvinists or myself to reason rightly. We are all at the mercy of God in our knowledge and we all are guilty or at risk of looking for logical consistency (in our own minds) that lead us from Scripture.

Another example with logical consistency from a non-Christian perspective:

If God is all loving, all good, and not evil, then why is their evil, pain, and suffering in the world? Answer: Because evil exists and is present God cant be good and is not present. ("Problem of evil") Argument of consistency by atheists.

My whole point is that scriptural error comes because our prideful reasoning prevents us from understanding Scripture and relying on our logic and looking for what we think is consistent. That is the whole point I am making.

 

I am not going to comment on anything you said above other than your solution hyper-Calvinism= determinism. It may be true that hypers use determinism as their reason of defense, but I dont think the terms are interchangeable. If I would be labeled a determinist I would not abuse that outside of Scripture. God determines all things small and large, but Scripture doesn't teach me to abuse his sovereignty although some might want to pin this to Calvinists. I think a Calvinist belief can lead to a lack of responsibility as a struggle, but at the same time that doesn't make it untrue. Not that that was your point... just making a statement

 

I'll stand by words which are for more meaningful and "truthful" than a suggestion that OldRegular's amount to "bait-and-switch tactics".

 

By the way, Herold, there is a point by point rebuttal of "your reasoning" waiting for you if have the integrity to address it rather than just continue to insist on begging your own question.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1933652&postcount=18

 

I am afraid to answer this question. The reason is because there are variations of all views. The common view labeled hyper-calvinism clearly goes against Scripture as it takes the view of sovereignty of God and in a sense disobeys or tests God. I have never met a hyper Calvinist to have a discussion, but my definition is one who uses their view of God’s sovereignty to opt out of obedience in certain areas. I don’t see your point in how they are consistent? Consistent in what? According to their logic? Consistent with Scripture? I don’t think its consistent at all to say, God is sovereign, He ultimately controls all things, because of this I don’t need to do this or that. That view is narrow, and when understanding sovereignty we can’t be so narrow and ultimately exhile other Biblical truths thinking they don’t mesh.

Im not sure how this relates to the topic at hand.

God’s desires are different from His needs. There are huge implications that will arise if we say, God needs our relationship. I think to say God needs goes against the character of God. Acts 17:25 says God isn’t in need of our worship which encompasses all of which I said above.

I hope Im not misunderstanding you here. God does not have a beginning or end. That is all over the Bible. I think that is understood when we are talking about God. Rev. 1:8 for example shows He is eternal, Eph. 3:11 say His purposes are eternal (always known). The way God relates to time is that He had always existed and that is all I meant in my statement.

My point was simply to reveal that if I though to far into God’s needlessness, I could be tempted to reason and conclude he doesn’t need me. If I didn’t understand the Bible and heard someone say, God doesn’t need your time, your love, your service, or anything I could take that to the logical end that He doesn’t need me. That was a simple way to reveal that by seeing God’s sovereignty alone we could logically conclude we don’t have to leave our beds. Yet, we know the Bible and connect multiple truths to understand each truth about God more deeply. He doesn’t need us, yet desires us to know Him. He is sovereign yet holds us responsible and desires to use us. Etc… I hope that clears up my point

Remember that I had one single point in my argument as a whole, this is getting a bit off my point. Without the Bible we may come to the conclusion that because He is needless and doesn’t need us that He doesn’t logically want us. This is a simple point to show where our human reasoning can lead us, even if it seems consistent. Our goal is Biblical understanding and by God’s grace we grow in understanding consistency by His definition (reality).

That would “seem consistent” to you. That is a perfect example with how one may rely on consistency and human logic and not letting theology come from Scripture. I think when trying to be consistent and use our reasoning we, again by Gods grace, must be submissive to Biblical teaching. The Bible is clear on Calvinism and God’s love for mankind. It is clear He only elects a few and most go to hell. I don’t personally know how God can love all and only save a few, but it is biblical though not logical in most of our minds. Some conclude that He hates all those He leaves in sin, but I don’t believe that is Biblical. This question leads to the problem of evil which will lead us both to issues we cannot comprehend.

 

I offered a line-by-line-point/counterpoint rejoinder to your very OP... would you like to respond to it???

 

He has stated he has people blocked HoS claiming them to be un-Christlike in their arguments. Hard telling who he thinks meets those standards, but I wouldn’t surprise me if my assessment of of his judgments in the matter is correct that would be anyone who dares to disagree with his reasoning. Therefore, I don’t know if I’d be expecting an answer if I were you. :laugh: Kind of defeats the purpose in raising an argument on a debate board, but seems some might appreciate that kind of advantage and/or are just here to broadcast and be heard on their beliefs as if on a blog. Guess we'll see.

 

I do believe God has predetermined the consequences for our action and no matter what until all repent it will continue to face the consequences for our action, even the innocent in the wake of the sinners sins.

God does give us over to our own evil desire, but praise God that it will all turn out good for those who love Him through Jesus Christ.

We cannot change the actions of others the only things we can can change is our action, that even if the earth gives away beneath us, or the world curse our names through all the trails and tribulations we praise His name.

Since God will give us over to our own evil desire, it is highly likely that He will give us over to a desire to do good which can only come though Him and His word.

God does not desire men to do a shooting spree in an elementary school, but some how through the horrible incident He will turn it into good for those who love Him through Jesus Christ.My worries for the family and love one's goes out in prayer and petitions to God.

Luke 13

13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”...

Jesus’ Sorrow for Jerusalem

31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.”

32 He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’ 33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[Psalm 118:26]”

 

Read this.....
http://www.puritansermons.com/willard/willard1.htm



In general, the decree is God's eternal purpose. Usually we define purpose as a fixed, resolved determination concerning something. It may be said to stand firm, Psalm 119:89 "Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens." God knows His own thoughts, Jer 29:11 "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD."

God's decree is said to be eternal. We think of God's acts in two categories: immanent, or coming from God's being, and temporal, only appearing for a time. The decree must be in the first category because it has to be eternal. God was never without His intention, which is why it is said to stand firm, Psalm 119:89 "Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens." Otherwise there would be change in God, which is contrary to His nature, Mal 3:6 "I the LORD do not change."

In particular we may identify various aspects of the decree:

1. The subject of the decree, or what is decreed. The catechism gives the answer, "whatsoever comes to pass", that is to say everything that happens in the world. The Bible is clear, that the decree involves all things, and extends to all events, Eph 1:11 "...according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will." The decree reaches to sparrows, Matt 10:29, to gourds and worms, Jonah 4. In the same way that it doesn't neglect the little things, it orders the greatest, such as all changes in kingdoms and States, Dan. 4.32. Even the most random of events are ordered by the decree, Prov 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD." Even the arbitrary contingent acts of rational beings are decreed, Acts 2:23 "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."

2. The influence that the decree has on its subjects. The decree fore-ordains them, or predetermines them. There is a vast multitude of possible things in the knowledge or understanding of God. The decree appoints which of them will come into existence and pass from possibility into actuality. The decree appoints not only that they will exist, but also when and how they will come into being. Therefore we see, as in Acts 2:23 as above, or Acts 4:27,28 "Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen." This appointing is a firm and unchangeable determination on the part of God. Therefore in the working of these acts we can see the unchanging nature of God. In everything he does He stands by His decree, Num 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfil?" Prov 19:21 "Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails." (Other Scriptures are Rom 11:29 and Psalm 102:27.)

3. The freedom or liberty which God had in making this decree. He did it "in conformity with the purpose of his will," Eph 1:11. Here we see two perfections of God, His plan and His good pleasure.

God's infinite wisdom may be seen in His plan. In our minds, a plan is necessary to any sort of decree, human or divine. The Bible plainly shows us that God works according to a plan. We can describe His plan in this way: it is His eternal deliberation with Himself, concerning the best way to accomplish His own purposes.

It is a deliberation. When men speak of discussing matters, we speak of deliberation. Although God knew all things from eternity past, and knew at the beginning what was best, nevertheless we see God deliberating at the very creation of man, Gen 1:26 "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..."

It is an eternal deliberation, because God's decrees are projects begun in eternity, Acts 15:17,18 "...the Lord, who does these things that have been known for ages." 1 Cor 2:7 "No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began." These deliberations took place before time came into existence.

It is a deliberation with Himself. In that eternity past there was no other person to consult with except Himself. Nor did He need anyone else to consult with, because he had the sum total of all wisdom in Himself. All secondary beings were to be the result of this plan and therefore none of them could participate in it.

It was the best way to accomplish His purposes. In every plan there is a purpose implied and also a question: what is the best way to achieve the purpose? The idea of a plan is to be concerned about the means so as to accomplish the end, or goal, of those means. God has many ways that He might use to achieve His ends but His wisdom determined the best way to accomplish them.

In this deliberation, God arranged in His mind an eternal idea of all things that are to exist. Then, conceiving of His work in the creation and governing of the world, God laid out a scheme of it in His infinite understanding. This idea must be eternal, because time is included in those things "...that have been known for ages." (Acts 15:18). There is a vast depth of wisdom in His plan, Rom 11:33 "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!" God has a double knowledge from our point of view. He knows His own power in Himself (what He can do), and all possible beings. God also knows His decree by which He knows all future things, which the Bible calls His foreknowledge, Rom 8:29 "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son." All of this was according to God's idea.

In men, the things in the physical universe are but an idea, and our knowledge is nothing but an image corresponding to actual things. However, God's knowledge is the idea, and the physical things are the image, because they were first in God's mind before they ever had corporeal existence. Now this idea is a single thing in God, not many things, because with one perfect and eternal view He clearly sees everything that is to be. They all stand before Him at once, because just as God can see Himself He sees all things.

People see everything from a different perspective, and see different things. This is the reason why the Bible refers to the one decree of God as the "manifold wisdom of God," (Eph 3:10). It not only extends to the kinds and natures of things, but to every one of each kind, and every action and change that belongs to it. God's decree counts not only every drop of rain that will fall, but where and when it will fall as well. It includes every thought that comes to the mind of every creature, and nothing is too small to escape it, Psalm 139:2,3 "You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways."

The other perfection of God that we see in His decree is His good pleasure. Although a plan is involved in the preparation of a decree, it is the will that fixes it. The authority that signs and seals a decree is what makes it valid. For this reason, God's decree may be further described as an act of God's will, most freely and effectively determined in Himself, concerning the working of all things. The Bible shows us these things about God's effective will: