Why the Doctrines of Grace is not Determinism

[Iconoclast]

Qualities of the Will of God

1. This will of God is most free and sovereign. God acted in His decree with the greatest freedom. He was not coerced for there is no dependence of the Creator upon His creation. God could do just as well without the things that exist as well as without those possible things that will never be. If God had never willed the creation to exist, he would not have injured it. He is not obliged to anyone outside of Himself, Rom 11:34,35 "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counsellor? Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" Besides, if God had not been free, He would not have had any deliberation, since coercion eliminates any need for deliberation.

2. This will of God is most effective. In a certain sense this decree is the cause of things happening, Psalm 135:6 "The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths." His will brings all things ordained by Him into actual existence at the right time without fail. His creative will merely says, "Let it be" and it is, as in the first chapter of Genesis.

3. Therefore this will of God is the first cause of all things. If we seek out the reason why things are, back to the original cause, we must find it in the decree, and determined by God's will. There may be many instrumental and intermediate causes willed by God to carry out His decree, but the ultimate cause of all is that decree. This may be seen in the creation, Rev 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honour and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." This is the reason for the new birth, James 1:18 "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth..." This may be seen in the application of His mercy, Rom 9:18 "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." God is not motivated by something he sees ahead of time in the creature.

4. Therefore the will of God is without a cause, that is to say, any cause outside of God Himself. Nothing outside of God can determine His will because nothing is greater than God, or before Him, or beyond Him. Matt 11:25,26 "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." Sometimes God may reveal to us His will for a particular thing and sometimes we can see that He created one thing for a purpose with regard to another. But if we ask what disposed God's will to create the universe? We must answer, because it was His will to do so.

5. This will makes the divine decree unalterable. He is an unchangeable God who sees that all things happen just as He determined, Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases." God's will cannot and will not be frustrated. If any act has been passed by the divine Legislature, so to speak, it stands ratified and will be enforced. Isa 43:13 "Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?"

6. Nevertheless this will of God does not lay any coercion on the creature, but only a certainty as to the outcome. Everything will happen as God's will has determined, but the freedom of people to choose their actions is not infringed. Indeed, the freedom of moral agents is ratified, because in His will he has determined that free agents will act freely. For example, in God's will it was impossible for the soldiers to break Christ's bones. But no coercion was laid upon them: they were free agents, who freely chose not to break them.

This might help you understand the decree or purpose of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Gods decree, in as much as it concerneth man, is called Predestination: which is the decree of God, by the which he hath ordained all men to a certaine and everlasting estate: that is, either to salvation or condemnation, for his own glory."
—William Perkins, A Golden Chain: or, The Description of Theologie. (1608).

God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
Westminster Larger Catechism Q3

God did not simply decree to save sinners without determining the means to effectuate the decree. The means leading to the predetermined end were also decreed (Acts 2:23; Eph. 2:8; 1 Pet. 1:2). The absolute character of the decree follows from its eternity, its immutability, and its exclusive dependence on the good pleasure of God. It is denied by all Semi-Pelagians and Arminians.
Louis Berkhof Systematic Theology pg. 105

God "works all things after the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11). This "all things" includes the fall of sparrows (Matthew 10:29), the rolling of dice (Proverbs 16:33), the slaughter of his people (Psalm 44:11), the decisions of kings (Proverbs 21:1), the failing of sight (Exodus 4:11), the sickness of children (2 Samuel 12:15), the loss and gain of money (1 Samuel 2:7), the suffering of saints (1 Peter 4:19), the completion of travel plans (James 4:15), the persecution of Christians (Hebrews 12:4-7), the repentance of souls (2 Timothy 2:25), the gift of faith (Philippians 1:29), the pursuit of holiness (Philippians 3:12-13), the growth of believers (Hebrews 6:3), the giving of life and the taking in death (1 Samuel 2:6), and the crucifixion of his Son (Acts 4:27-28).
John Piper

“It is true, God’s will cannot be hindered of its effect, for then God would not be supremely blessed, but unhappy and miserable : all misery ariseth from a want of that which a nature would have, and ought to have : besides, if anything could frustrate God’s will, it would be superior to him : God would not be omnipotent, and so would lose the perfection of the Deity, and consequently the Deity itself ; for that which did wholly defeat God’s will, would be more powerful than he. But sin is a contradiction to the will of God’s revelation, to the will of his precept: and therein doth naturally tend to a superiority over God, and would usurp his omnipotence, and deprive him of his blessedness. For if God had not an infinite power to turn the designs of it to his own glory, but the will of sin could prevail, God would be totally deprived of his blessedness. Doth not sin endeavor to subject God to the extravagant and contrary wills of men, and make him more a slave than any creature can be? For the will of no creature, not the meanest and most despicable creature, is so much crossed, as the will of God is by sin (Isa. xliii. 24): ” Thou hast made me to serve with thy sins:” thou hast endeavored to make a mere slave of me by sin. Sin endeavors to subject the blessed God to the humor and lust of every person in the world.”
- Stephen Charnock

From monergism....

 

[Revmitchell]

Brother Herald, free will doesn't harm the doctrines of grace whatsoever. Please refrain from saying such in the future.

Well I suppose if that is his view he should express it just like any view you have.

 

[12strings]

The only difference is that "Hyper-Calvinists" (and here I dis-regard the idea that they must refuse to Evangelize or engage in missions) are intellectually honest and they are the only form of Calvinism which is logically consistent.

I think both sides on this thread are working from different definitions of hyper-Calvinism. I suppose no definitive definition exists, but I have always been taught that the rejection of Evangelism & Missions was in fact the definitive factor in determining hyper-Calvinism. I believe it is a mistake to assume that a hyper-calvinist is simply "a really serious calvinist."

So, in my understanding, a "hyper-calvinist" who is incessantly evangelizing his neighbors and supporting world missions is not, in fact, a hyper calvinist at all, even if he does beleive in Absolute predestination and God's minute control of every aspect of history.


FURTHER, I THINK VINCENT CHEUNG HAS A VERY GOOD POINT HERE:

Here is what Vincent Cheung writes; Apologetics is easy, but it is often made difficult by unbiblical traditions and irrational assumptions.

When Reformed Christians are questioned on whether God is the "author of sin," they are too quick to say, "No, God is not the author of sin." And then they twist and turn and writhe on the floor, trying to give man some power of "self-determination," and some kind of freedom that in their minds would render man culpable, and yet still leave God with total sovereignty.

On the other hand, when someone alleges that my view of divine sovereignty makes God the author of sin, my first reaction tends to be, "So what?" Even Christians who disagree with me stupidly chant, "But he makes God the author of sin, he makes God the author of sin…." However, a description does not amount to an argument or objection, and I have never come across a half-decent explanation as to what's wrong with God being the author of sin in any theological or philosophical work written by anybody from any perspective.

...After all: "Author of sin" is not a phrase found in scripture, and therefore must always be defined extra-biblically.

 

[pinoybaptist]

It's all really very simple once we begin to rightly divide the Scriptures. Salvation, the eternal one, the one purposed by the Great One in Three, or the Great Three in One, whichever is your preference, is all OF God, all action, purpose, and work is OF God, TO the elect sinners.

God caused His Son to be born of a virgin, at His own pre-appointed time and in His own pre-determined place, to redeem a people unto His Name, and these people are scattered ALL OVER TIME AND ALL OVER THE EARTH, little pinpricks of light in a sin-darkened world.

With ONE death, and ONE resurrection, and ONE shedding of His blood, the sins of these elect were atoned for, past, present, future, and ALL OF THESE elect redeemed and prepared for heaven and eternity by the Son, no thanks to any of them, no input from any of them, NOTHING demanded by God from any of them, in exchange for heaven.
ALL THE ELECT meaning all in EVERY AGE, past, present, future.
Their eternal salvation depended on the willingness of the Son to go up that cross in their stead to bear the punishment that was rightfully theirs, and the mercy of God on them, mercy and grace totally unmerited and totally and voluntarily given to them by God because it was His will for them.

WHO CAN LAY ANYTHING TO THE CHARGE OF GOD'S ELECT ?

However, these elect are creatures of time, descended from a fallen Adam, alienated from God and HIS WAY by their sin nature, possessed with a spirit DEAD in sin and trespasses, therefore, each and every one must be quickened, brought to life, by the Holy Spirit, and ONLY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, who does this regeneration apart from any means, whether written, or spoken, and who will lose NONE of these elect, notwithstanding their earthly and timely circumstances, bringing and drawing each and every one of these elect to Christ IN HIS OWN TIME AND WAY.

They must be taught THE WAY To worship God, the true God, IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH, therefore SAVING THEM from their false gods, false worships and the lies that surround them in this fallen world, and this God does through the GOSPEL, the preaching of the Word, the gathering of His people or as much as is humanly reached by the gospel, into clusters of called out ones, called church, where His Name is held in worship and highest regard, amidst the crooked and sinful generation wherever and whenever they are gathered as a body of believers not because of the hard work of any missionary, but because it is the will of God for them in that place (remember Paul and God saying he shouldn't leave Corinth because He, God, had much people there ?).

The obvious questions are : will everyone, will every elect, get to know Christ in this plane called time, as THE Savior, THE redeemer, THE master ?
will every elect be gathered into one united body in this plane called time ? will every elect learn the true doctrines that point them to a blessed timely relation with their Savior, thereby them receiving the blessings that come from such a relationship ?

The obvious answer is NO. Not everyone of those elect will reap the benefits of a gospel life.

But EVERYONE, no one slipping thru the cracks, will be in heaven when the time comes, either in their individual deaths, or when the Lord gathers His saints home.
Because their ETERNAL salvation is not determined by their conversions and earthly salvation on earth.

Divide the word correctly.
Put Christ high above every creature, every creature's work.

 

[OldRegular]

pinoy

I am not sure that I would put it like you have but Jesus Christ died for the Elect and God will bring all His Elect to Salvation!

 

[Yeshua1]

This is easily shown to be error.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Now how in the world can God decree or ordain that which he never commanded, and which never came into his heart or mind?

Please answer this question.

thiose versings are speaking of God in the sense though that he knew what was happening beforehand, and they did NOT do what the lord comanded them to do!

Speaking of him in human like terms for our understanding!

God knows all things all times, how can he not ever know not what is happening?

He knows start to finish all things, doesn't He?

 

[Iconoclast]

12strings

FURTHER, I THINK VINCENT CHEUNG HAS A VERY GOOD POINT HERE:
On the other hand, when someone alleges that my view of divine sovereignty makes God the author of sin, my first reaction tends to be, "So what?" Even Christians who disagree with me stupidly chant, "But he makes God the author of sin, he makes God the author of sin…." However, a description does not amount to an argument or objection, and I have never come across a half-decent explanation as to what's wrong with God being the author of sin in any theological or philosophical work written by anybody from any perspective.


...After all: "Author of sin" is not a phrase found in scripture, and therefore must always be defined extra-biblically.

What do you think is a good point here? If this were true there would be no God...what are you thinking here?

 

[Benjamin]

I have never come across a half-decent explanation as to what's wrong with God being the author of sin in any theological or philosophical work written by anybody from any perspective.

Looking into the (P.O.E) "Problem of Evil" should resolve this issue from a philoshical and logical perspective concerning the existence of God.


From a Biblical perspective God is only "Omnibenevolent" as His attributes are thoroughly explained here:

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

 

[Tom Butler]

Here is my definition of Hyper-Calvinism:
That God has purposed to save some, and they will be saved whether or not they ever hear the gospel.

In other words, independently of means and independently of the gospel.

 

[Benjamin]

- Stephen Charnock

From monergism....

How about if I were to say this source of yours was “bound by this carnal philosophical demon”? Would that be acceptable and justified for me to do by your reasoning??? If not, why not???

BTW, It is a violation of board rules to question others salvation!

Originally Posted by Iconoclast:
That will also free me to "parrot" vital truths that others who are not bound by this carnal philosophical demon might enjoy reading and studying out for themselves.

Hence, from my prepared statement regarding your conduct on this debate board:… and also reminds me of the tactics used by cult members who commonly go about threatening with words or by use "your highlighted scriptural interpretations to suggest" their opponents aren't saved if they don't believe in your "special enlightenments".

Seems you’ve determined this man is not “bound by this carnal philosophical demon” on the bases of his “vital truths” according to what “reasoning” again? - That his philosophical interpretations agree with yours or is it maybe that he has been “specially enlightened” to understand these things as truth the same as you have been?

Either way it seems to boil down that you believe that he is not “bound by this carnal philosophical demon” because his “reasoning” agrees with yours and anyone who disagrees with by their "reasoning" is?

This goes to show a cultic pattern being that “you must believe as Icon or you are not saved” and any other "reasoning" is “bound by this carnal philosophical demon”.

Or is it that you are merely trying to suggest that my reasoning is “bound by this carnal philosophical demon”?

No matter how you add it up you have made the suggestion that I am “bound by this carnal philosophical demon”!!! Your reasoning is that I am“bound by this carnal philosophical demon”!!! This kind of suggestion is CLEARLY against board rules!

Thank for the opportunity to demonstrate by this example how you "slyly" use such tactics to continuously question your opponent's salvation while you go about your agenda promote your belief.

 

[Winman]

Read this.....
http://www.puritansermons.com/willard/willard1.htm

In general, the decree is God's eternal purpose. Usually we define purpose as a fixed, resolved determination concerning something. It may be said to stand firm, Psalm 119:89 "Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens." God knows His own thoughts, Jer 29:11 "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD."

God's decree is said to be eternal. We think of God's acts in two categories: immanent, or coming from God's being, and temporal, only appearing for a time. The decree must be in the first category because it has to be eternal. God was never without His intention, which is why it is said to stand firm, Psalm 119:89 "Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens." Otherwise there would be change in God, which is contrary to His nature, Mal 3:6 "I the LORD do not change."

In particular we may identify various aspects of the decree:

1. The subject of the decree, or what is decreed. The catechism gives the answer, "whatsoever comes to pass", that is to say everything that happens in the world. The Bible is clear, that the decree involves all things, and extends to all events, Eph 1:11 "...according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will." The decree reaches to sparrows, Matt 10:29, to gourds and worms, Jonah 4. In the same way that it doesn't neglect the little things, it orders the greatest, such as all changes in kingdoms and States, Dan. 4.32. Even the most random of events are ordered by the decree, Prov 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD." Even the arbitrary contingent acts of rational beings are decreed, Acts 2:23 "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."

2. The influence that the decree has on its subjects. The decree fore-ordains them, or predetermines them. There is a vast multitude of possible things in the knowledge or understanding of God. The decree appoints which of them will come into existence and pass from possibility into actuality. The decree appoints not only that they will exist, but also when and how they will come into being. Therefore we see, as in Acts 2:23 as above, or Acts 4:27,28 "Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen." This appointing is a firm and unchangeable determination on the part of God. Therefore in the working of these acts we can see the unchanging nature of God. In everything he does He stands by His decree, Num 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfil?" Prov 19:21 "Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails." (Other Scriptures are Rom 11:29 and Psalm 102:27.)

3. The freedom or liberty which God had in making this decree. He did it "in conformity with the purpose of his will," Eph 1:11. Here we see two perfections of God, His plan and His good pleasure.

God's infinite wisdom may be seen in His plan. In our minds, a plan is necessary to any sort of decree, human or divine. The Bible plainly shows us that God works according to a plan. We can describe His plan in this way: it is His eternal deliberation with Himself, concerning the best way to accomplish His own purposes.

It is a deliberation. When men speak of discussing matters, we speak of deliberation. Although God knew all things from eternity past, and knew at the beginning what was best, nevertheless we see God deliberating at the very creation of man, Gen 1:26 "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..."

It is an eternal deliberation, because God's decrees are projects begun in eternity, Acts 15:17,18 "...the Lord, who does these things that have been known for ages." 1 Cor 2:7 "No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began." These deliberations took place before time came into existence.

It is a deliberation with Himself. In that eternity past there was no other person to consult with except Himself. Nor did He need anyone else to consult with, because he had the sum total of all wisdom in Himself. All secondary beings were to be the result of this plan and therefore none of them could participate in it.

It was the best way to accomplish His purposes. In every plan there is a purpose implied and also a question: what is the best way to achieve the purpose? The idea of a plan is to be concerned about the means so as to accomplish the end, or goal, of those means. God has many ways that He might use to achieve His ends but His wisdom determined the best way to accomplish them.

In this deliberation, God arranged in His mind an eternal idea of all things that are to exist. Then, conceiving of His work in the creation and governing of the world, God laid out a scheme of it in His infinite understanding. This idea must be eternal, because time is included in those things "...that have been known for ages." (Acts 15:18). There is a vast depth of wisdom in His plan, Rom 11:33 "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!" God has a double knowledge from our point of view. He knows His own power in Himself (what He can do), and all possible beings. God also knows His decree by which He knows all future things, which the Bible calls His foreknowledge, Rom 8:29 "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son." All of this was according to God's idea.

In men, the things in the physical universe are but an idea, and our knowledge is nothing but an image corresponding to actual things. However, God's knowledge is the idea, and the physical things are the image, because they were first in God's mind before they ever had corporeal existence. Now this idea is a single thing in God, not many things, because with one perfect and eternal view He clearly sees everything that is to be. They all stand before Him at once, because just as God can see Himself He sees all things.

People see everything from a different perspective, and see different things. This is the reason why the Bible refers to the one decree of God as the "manifold wisdom of God," (Eph 3:10). It not only extends to the kinds and natures of things, but to every one of each kind, and every action and change that belongs to it. God's decree counts not only every drop of rain that will fall, but where and when it will fall as well. It includes every thought that comes to the mind of every creature, and nothing is too small to escape it, Psalm 139:2,3 "You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways."

The other perfection of God that we see in His decree is His good pleasure. Although a plan is involved in the preparation of a decree, it is the will that fixes it. The authority that signs and seals a decree is what makes it valid. For this reason, God's decree may be further described as an act of God's will, most freely and effectively determined in Himself, concerning the working of all things. The Bible shows us these things about God's effective will:

As usual, you parrot someone else. I get the impression you do not even understand your own doctrine, you seem unable to explain it in your own words.

All of this verbiage, and still you do not answer this simple question;

How can God decree or ordain something he never commanded?

Come on Icon, you can do it, you can speak for yourself. Please answer in your own words how God can decree or ordain something he never commanded.

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin

How about if I were to say this source of yours was “bound by this carnal philosophical demon”? Would that be acceptable and justified for me to do by your reasoning??? If not, why not???

You are free to express your opinion in any way you like. I will not stop or censor you.This quote by Steven Charnock is based on scripture but it does not offer as much scripture right here as i would like....so you can react or not react to it.

BTW, It is a violation of board rules to question others salvation!

Yes it is and I not do that would not do that as cannot see someones heart.With that in mind ...perhaps you should take care how you word your own posting likening a BB member to "cult like"....anything! like here:

eminds me of the tactics used by cult members who commonly go about threatening with words

Hence, from my prepared statement regarding your conduct on this debate board:… and also reminds me of the tactics used by cult members who commonly go about threatening with words or by use "your highlighted scriptural interpretations to suggest" their opponents aren't saved if they don't believe in your "special enlightenments".

Divine truth is revealed by the Spirit to the people of God.
All Christians know this to be so. To others it is not given.I would like to see all come to truth.God witholds truth from the proud..He resists them.

Seems you’ve determined this man is not “bound by this carnal philosophical demon” on the bases of his “vital truths” according to what “reasoning” again? -

His reasoning is biblically based upon revealed truth.He starts with scripture then seeks to understand life based on scripture.
Someone afflicted by carnal reasoning and tormented by carnal reasoning...starts with himself, his proud thoughts,and then comes to scripture bring the baggage of carnal logic...then sits as judge over scripture and those who believe in God and His word.....Do you see the difference?

That his philosophical interpretations agree with yours or is it maybe that he has been “specially enlightened” to understand these things as truth the same as you have been?

Having read some of Mr.Charnock I would conclude that he has been gifted much more than I or most in here have been. So I try to learn from him. All revelation and understanding of scripture comes from God to all christians who seek truth...humbly...and do not blame God for mans sin.

Either way it seems to boil down that you believe that he is not “bound by this carnal philosophical demon” because his “reasoning” agrees with yours and anyone who disagrees with by their "reasoning" is?

It might seem that way to you....you have many strange ideas.You recently accused Herald of the same thing.

This goes to show a cultic pattern being that “you must believe as Icon or you are not saved” and any other "reasoning" is “bound by this carnal philosophical demon”.

I have not said that...it is you who claims such.

Or is it that you are merely trying to suggest that my reasoning is “bound by this carnal philosophical demon”?

Now that you mention it......maybe you should read your posts and see if it is true of you.This might explain your sensitivity on this issue.Just saying!

No matter how you add it up you have made the suggestion that I am “bound by this carnal philosophical demon”!!! Your reasoning is that I am“bound by this carnal philosophical demon”!!! This kind of suggestion is CLEARLY against board rules!

You are trying the shoe on...maybe it fits, maybe not. If you speak of a thief in one of your posts...and i have not stolen anything...I would not be so sensitive about it as I did not steal. Why are you ascribing this to yourself? I have spoken to you about this in the past.I do think this is a very serious issue that could afflict a person.

Thank for the opportunity to demonstrate by this example how you "slyly" use such tactics to continuously question your opponent's salvation while you go about your agenda promote your belief.

Well Benjamin my friend...we all have our moments don't we. When I post and try to zero in on problems on a topic...you can rightly say there are times I go for ....a close shave....lol. No doubt about that.It is hard to discuss errors that could be damaging to a soul and not cause some discomfort.

If you have knicked by the razor of truth...i hope you do not find it too painful my friend.

 

[OldRegular]

Here is my definition of Hyper-Calvinism:
That God has purposed to save some, and they will be saved whether or not they ever hear the gospel.

I never thought of myself as a hyper-Calvinist, or a laid-back-Calvinist, or a Calvinist of any sort, but if God purposed to save anyone He will save them, otherwise He would not be God!

As I told pinoy!

 

[pinoybaptist]

pinoy

I am not sure that I would put it like you have but Jesus Christ died for the Elect and God will bring all His Elect to Salvation!

Brother:

God will not simply just bring His elect to salvation.
In regards to eternal salvation, that is, having been spared from the eternal consequences of sin, He has already saved each and every one of them.
Christ died ONCE, for all.

In regards to (what we Primitive Baptists call) gospel or timely salvation, not every elect child of God will have this, because timely salvation is dependent on gospel instruction, and gospel instruction of God's people is to be undertaken by those called into the ministry, beginning with the apostles, and on down to preachers and teachers in the churches.
Obviously, there were no gospel preachers and teachers until there was a gospel to be preached and taught AFTER the Mt. Olivet marching orders were given to the apostles.
Obviously, also, unlike the Holy Spirit, who is God and Omnipresent, the apostles and those in the ministries are physically limited as to where they can be, when they can be there, how they can be there, and whom they are able to reach.
In addition, every second of every hour of every day, babies come into this world, many of whom are possibly among the elect, and not all will grow up to hear gospel instruction in their lifetime or in their locations, and some will grow up where the gospel is perhaps banned.
There are many earthly circumstances where the preaching of the gospel may be hindered and not benefit the children of God in this plane we call time.
So we see the infinite wisdom of God.
Eternal salvation all OF HIM, no demands from the sinner.
Gospel salvation to some of His elect, but not all, though ALL of His elect are beneficiaries of His grace and mercy in Christ.

 

[Benjamin]

Benjamin

You are free to express your opinion in any way you like.

Wrong! This board has rules that I strive to follow as well as maintaining ethics, being rational and showing some integrity in the way I debate. You make quite a revealing assumption there, Icon.

The mere fact that many board members have called "you" on questioning their salvation speaks for itself.

Your tactics aren't as cleaver as you think they are, even if you do manage to fly under the radar and continue with your assaults thinking , "You are free to express your opinion in any way you like."

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

As usual, you parrot someone else

.

As usual...you cannot understand what was offered , so now you say I am a parrot. Interact with the truth offered.You never answered my original questions back at you.....

Do you think anything at all happens apart from what God has decreed?

I get the impression you do not even understand your own doctrine, you seem unable to explain it in your own words.

Your impression is based on your lack of proper regard for the scriptures.Do not worry about me...or my words....look for the truth
of scripture

All of this verbiage, and still you do not answer this simple question;

I have answered your question but you look at the answer and do not see it.....Winman...I am not the lady in the Helen Keller story going over and over the same errors until you get it.
How can God decree or ordain something he never commanded?

Your answer is here...stop being lazy..read a couple of sentences at a time, think it over, look up the verses....you can see it if you want to.

 

[Winman]

Winman
.

As usual...you cannot understand what was offered , so now you say I am a parrot. Interact with the truth offered.You never answered my original questions back at you.....

Do you think anything at all happens apart from what God has decreed?



Your impression is based on your lack of proper regard for the scriptures.Do not worry about me...or my words....look for the truth
of scripture



I have answered your question but you look at the answer and do not see it.....Winman...I am not the lady in the Helen Keller story going over and over the same errors until you get it.
How can God decree or ordain something he never commanded?

Your answer is here...stop being lazy..read a couple of sentences at a time, think it over, look up the verses....you can see it if you want to.

You have never answered my question. And your copy and paste did not answer it either.

You cannot answer the question. Three times in Jeremiah God said that he did not command the Jews to sacrifice their children to false idols.

You believe God decreed this sin, but God said he never commanded it. So I ask you how God can decree or ordain something he never commanded?

Truth is, you are not ABLE to answer this question.

 

[Iconoclast]

Wrong! This board has rules that I strive to follow as well as maintaining ethics, being rational and showing some integrity in the way I debate. You make quite a revealing assumption there, Icon.

The mere fact that many board members have called "you" on questioning their salvation speaks for itself.

Your tactics aren't as cleaver as you think they are, even if you do manage to fly under the radar and continue with your assaults thinking , "You are free to express your opinion in any way you like."

So.....I can only express an opinion based on what you like...:laugh:

You twist my words and try to make them say otherwise,but that is your frustration at being called for your....as you say ...tactics.
Nice try.....but you have failed again.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

As usual, you parrot someone else. I get the impression you do not even understand your own doctrine, you seem unable to explain it in your own words.

All of this verbiage, and still you do not answer this simple question;

You call scripture and teaching...verbiage....no wonder you cannot find truth.

My own words.
All that exists ,exists by God's decreed plan and purpose.

Nothing exists outside of what God has decreed .

This eternal purpose is made known to the church.EPH3er :9-11

Sin and evil exist under God's control.....and yet......pay attention.....
God does not sin, or COMMAND sin. He cannot in any way.

For anyone to suggest otherwise reveals an evil heart of unbelief.

Nothing exists outside of God's control.

God alone defines everything that exists.


He uses sinners and the evil they do for his purpose , but will by no means clear the guilty...they are fully responsible.

I have given scriptural examples of this, and posted several links for you to study. If you do not interact with them...that is on you and you will remain in ignorance ......


http://www.theopedia.com/Decrees_of_God