Why the Doctrines of Grace is not Determinism

[OldRegular]

12 Strings, you are seeing clearly. The problem is that Calvinist "scholars" talk out of both sides of their mouth. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want God to decree every single thing that happens so that it must UNCHANGEABLY take place, and yet not have God as the author of sin.

Winman you continually show your lack of understanding of the Doctrines of Grace, or Calvinism as you pejoratively call them! Consider what the 1644 London Baptist Confession {1646 Edition} says about God's decrees.

The 1644 London Baptist Confession of Faith (1646 Edition)

God had decreed in Himself, before the world was, concerning all things, whether necessary, accidental or voluntary, with all the circumstances of them, to work, dispose, and bring about all things according to the counsel of His own will, to His glory: (Yet without being the [chargeable] author of sin, or having fellowship with any therein) in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, unchangeableness, power, and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree: And God hath before the foundation of the world, foreordained some men to eternal life, through Jesus Christ, to the praise and glory of His grace; [having foreordained and] leaving the rest in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His justice.

Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Ps. 115:3; 135:6, 33:15; 1 Sam. 10:9, 26, Prov. 21:6; Exod. 21:13; Prov. 16:33, Ps. 144, Isa. 45:7, Jer. 14:22, Matt. 6:28, 30; Col. 1:16, 17; Num. 23:19, 20; Rom. 3:4; Jer. 10:10; Eph. 1:4,5; Jude 4, 6; Prov. 16:4.

http://www.oldschoolbaptist.org/Articles/1644LondonConfessionOfFaith.htm

The above is perfectly consistent with Romans 8:28:

Romans 8:28 NASB
28. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Now is there anyone who believes that only good things occur in the lives of Christians? I think not! Yet God is able to cause all thing {"whether necessary, accidental or voluntary" or anything else, good, bad, or indifferent} to work for good to those who belong to him. That is not "stoic determinism" that is the Love of God.

And with Romans 8:29, 30:
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[Winman]

You do not bring any heat at all. You trample the word of God under your feet and demonstrate a complete inability to interact with the teaching offered.My hope is that others have been able to study these issues.

You and a few kindred spirits seek to blame God for mans sin. I have no time for that.You did not look up the verses did you...or as you call it...verbaige.

What a false person you are, you should be ashamed, but I know you never will.

Show where I ever accused God of evil. Show it.

You can't do it, you flat out lie, and you know it.

It is your doctrine that makes God the author of sin. Great scholars for hundreds of years have been saying Calvinism/Reformed theology makes God the author of sin. Simply denying the logical conclusions of your doctrine does not get you off the hook. Criminals always deny their crimes.

Show where I have ever accused God of evil.

 

[12strings]

How did I misstate that whatsoever God ordains will UNCHANGEABLY come to pass?

If your doctrine is true, God ordained this fellow would murder 20 children the other day. God ordained this before the killer was ever born. The killer could not help but have the desire to kill these children, it was unchangeably ordained by God before he was born if your doctrine is true. He could not change his mind, he could not decide not to commit this crime, he MUST have the desire to kill these children and he must perform it.

It may be helpful to notice that some calvinists (and their usage of the word may not immediately tell you which they believe) would use the word or ordain to possibly mean 2 different things:
1. God Ordained that Adam be created (ie, planned it, did it, it was all God.
2. God ordained that Adam sin (ie, new it would occur based on giving adam the choice, and allowed it to happen, ie, did not create a world in which adam would not sin.)

I believe many Cal/DoG, whatever, would hold to this kind of ordaining...that God ordains whatever comes to be, sometimes by causing it, and other times (as in cases of sin), allowing it. I think this seems to be where herald is, I'm not sure about Icon...he may not be willing to simply say "God allows free people to make evil choices." (perhaps he will tell us).

This was stated in one of the things Icon quoted:

He is not the Author of it in the same way that He is the Author of good. Sin could not proceed from a holy God by positive and direct creation, but only by decretive permission and negative action.

Now, this does not completely explain verses like Acts 4:27-28 very well. But niether does ANY explanation other than God's direct orchestrating of the crucifixion, sinful actions included.

In the end, I tend to agree with Herald that God's Sovereignty over creation and man's real choices will be impossible to reconcile.

----------------------------------------

ALSO...based on the above, for winman, I think there is a 3rd option:

I posted three verses from Jeremiah where God said he never commanded the Jews to sacrifice their children to false gods, yet that is what they were doing. You have only two options here;

#1 God told a lie, God decreed (commanded) that these Jews sacrifice their children to idols before they were born.

#2 Your doctrine has more holes in it than the Titanic.

I go with #2

#3 Herald and icon are not using the word "decreed" to mean commanded...they are using it to mean "ordained" in the sense of allowing it to come to pass for some higher purpose...Ie, in one sense, God "decrees" (commands) that Brothers should treat each other kindly...in another sense, God "decrees" (ordains to be, in this sense by allowing sin that he could easily have stopped) that Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery.

 

[OldRegular]

Great scholars for hundreds of years have been saying Calvinism/Reformed theology makes God the author of sin.

Could you put a name on those "Great Scholars"?

 

[12strings]

In reality, Both sides must face the tough question of why does God allow any to suffer, and even to be eternally lost, when it is within his power to save them? It is the old question that non-cals ask of cals about whether I might love my child more than God...but it goes both ways:

For Cal/Dog: Why doesn't God Elect and irresistibly call all sinners to repentance? If my son is not elect, and I desperately desire him to be saved, but God does not call him, but allows him to continue in rebellion till death and hell, do I love my son more than God does?

For non-cal: Why does God seem to value the individual's free will MORE than their eternal happiness and salvation. Surely any loving parent who saw their child running to destruction would, if it were within their power, overcome their child's stubborn will and turn them around...If God does not do this when it within his power, Do I love my son more than God?

(For the record, I don't think these questions can be adequately answered).

 

[Winman]

Winman I respect Heralds honesty. The fact is that there is simply no way to fully boxGod in our logical minds. We take all Scripture and truth God reveals to us and have our varying levels of understanding, but to try to logically understand how God is God is not going yo come out pretty. If you would use your methods:

1. Dont read books or listen to other teachers ( although i know you probably dont believe this)
2. Try to logically understand everything to its final question (even if scripture stops)

You then would never have come to believe in the trinity or other theological truths revealed in the Bible.

We all are guilty at times here.

I think its a method issue and of course our sin that blinds us in understanding.

Ill admit that your logical end to understanding how God can be good and decree everything (including evil) is not logical in our minds. I have news for you, take your logic and try to understand how evil is present at all with a good God and you'll come to this conclusion like Bill Maher and many atheists do:

"Why all the games, why not create all people in heaven in perfect knowledge apart from sin with no fallen earth or hell?"

It makes no logical sense to me bc if I was God everyone would be in heaven and sin would have never existed.

Yet God did it. Even if free will was the answer why let it happen? Tragedy after tragedy.

See winman, in the deepest sense you can always blame God.

As for my view, God is totally in control, period. I have no idea how He controls evil, but He does. Even the tornado that kills a nursery of infants, God is in control. Nothing happens apart from his will. Logically i run into issues, but is it my falty assumptions or traps i set for God or is the Bible true and Im missing something? I have to come to points where I humbly say, I believe, Ill keep thinking, but ok God. I accept paradox, like the trinity, and ill keep going from here. Who knows maybe it will make more sense later, or ill see something more clearly.

This was a good post and an honest post, quite refreshing compared to your comrade in Calvinism.

Why does God allow sin? Because God must allow us to make our own choices. It would be immoral for God to enslave us against our will. God must give us free will so that we can choose to love him, but this same free will necessarily provides that a man can choose to hate God. It cannot be avoided, even by God.

What did Jesus say about Jerusalem?

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Did Jesus desire to save all the inhabitants of Jerusalem? YES. Was he able? NO. The majority of Jews in Jerusalem rejected God and Jesus.

See, you are under the false impression that God can just do whatever he wants because he is God. You think God could force every person in Jerusalem to accept Jesus if he wanted to, but that is not what scripture tells us. Jesus wanted and desired to save these Jews, but he was not able. Why? Because God is MORAL. He cannot force someone to love him against his will.

Now, God could kill us all before we sin, but it sure would be a lonely universe. No, the scriptures show God is longsuffering and patient and desiring that all men come to repentance. God by necessity must put up with some degree of sin. The only other option is to kill us all.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Jesus said offences or sins must come, they cannot be avoided, even by God. Why? Because God is love and perfectly moral and must allow us to make our own choice whether we serve God, or rebel against him.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Calvinism exalts the sovereignty of God at the expense of his holiness. God is holy and just, he cannot force us to love him, thus sin cannot be avoided and is necessary.

 

[Winman]

It may be helpful to notice that some calvinists (and their usage of the word may not immediately tell you which they believe) would use the word or ordain to possibly mean 2 different things:
1. God Ordained that Adam be created (ie, planned it, did it, it was all God.
2. God ordained that Adam sin (ie, new it would occur based on giving adam the choice, and allowed it to happen, ie, did not create a world in which adam would not sin.)

I believe many Cal/DoG, whatever, would hold to this kind of ordaining...that God ordains whatever comes to be, sometimes by causing it, and other times (as in cases of sin), allowing it. I think this seems to be where herald is, I'm not sure about Icon...he may not be willing to simply say "God allows free people to make evil choices." (perhaps he will tell us).

This was stated in one of the things Icon quoted:



Now, this does not completely explain verses like Acts 4:27-28 very well. But niether does ANY explanation other than God's direct orchestrating of the crucifixion, sinful actions included.

In the end, I tend to agree with Herald that God's Sovereignty over creation and man's real choices will be impossible to reconcile.

----------------------------------------

ALSO...based on the above, for winman, I think there is a 3rd option:


#3 Herald and icon are not using the word "decreed" to mean commanded...they are using it to mean "ordained" in the sense of allowing it to come to pass for some higher purpose...Ie, in one sense, God "decrees" (commands) that Brothers should treat each other kindly...in another sense, God "decrees" (ordains to be, in this sense by allowing sin that he could easily have stopped) that Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery.

This is the problem, trying to nail down a Calvinist on definitions is like trying to catch a smoke ring with a butterfly net.

A decree is a COMMAND. It is not a suggestion, it is not simply allowing something to happen.

Many Calvinist creeds such as the Presbyterian creed I posted say God UNCHANGEABLY ordains what must come to pass. There is no choice in any event that comes to pass. According to this creed, God unchangeably ordained or decreed this young man would kill 20 children. God made this decree before the young man was ever born. The man absolutely could not make any other choice, he had to desire to kill these children and carry through with it.

Calvinists want their cake and to eat it too, it does not work.

 

[Herald]

For Cal/Dog: Why doesn't God Elect and irresistibly call all sinners to repentance? If my son is not elect, and I desperately desire him to be saved, but God does not call him, but allows him to continue in rebellion till death and hell, do I love my son more than God does?

(For the record, I don't think these questions can be adequately answered).

Romans 9:22-23 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

God decided that there would be two groups of people: elect and non-elect. I think your parenthetical question seeks to understand why He created two groups. That's an honest question. Perhaps it has to do with the special nature of the relationship that a Father has with His children. He created one group in order to lavish His blessing upon them. The other group stands in sharp contrast to the first group.

Perhaps these questions cannot be adequately answered, but the answer that scripture offers is adequate. It just may not be adequate to our ever questioning minds.

 

[OldRegular]

In reality, Both sides must face the tough question of why does God allow any to suffer, and even to be eternally lost, when it is within his power to save them? It is the old question that non-cals ask of cals about whether I might love my child more than God...but it goes both ways:

For Cal/Dog: Why doesn't God Elect and irresistibly call all sinners to repentance? If my son is not elect, and I desperately desire him to be saved, but God does not call him, but allows him to continue in rebellion till death and hell, do I love my son more than God does?

For non-cal: Why does God seem to value the individual's free will MORE than their eternal happiness and salvation. Surely any loving parent who saw their child running to destruction would, if it were within their power, overcome their child's stubborn will and turn them around...If God does not do this when it within his power, Do I love my son more than God?

(For the record, I don't think these questions can be adequately answered).

(For the record, I don't think these questions can be adequately answered) either!

 

[Herald]

Brother, I'm editing this post. On second thought it really is unnecessary. I've already stated this once. A second time doesn't really accomplish anything.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is the problem, trying to nail down a Calvinist on definitions is like trying to catch a smoke ring with a butterfly net.

A decree is a COMMAND. It is not a suggestion, it is not simply allowing something to happen.

Many Calvinist creeds such as the Presbyterian creed I posted say God UNCHANGEABLY ordains what must come to pass. There is no choice in any event that comes to pass. According to this creed, God unchangeably ordained or decreed this young man would kill 20 children. God made this decree before the young man was ever born. The man absolutely could not make any other choice, he had to desire to kill these children and carry through with it.

Calvinists want their cake and to eat it too, it does not work.

God decrees are for His glory and good pleasure, and in all things, being worked per his Will, are always the best choice that can be made!

Do you deny that?