Featured Why the Doctrines of Grace is not Determinism

Winman you continually show your lack of understanding of the Doctrines of Grace, or Calvinism as you pejoratively call them! Consider what the 1644 London Baptist Confession {1646 Edition} says about God's decrees.

The above is perfectly consistent with Romans 8:28:

Romans 8:28 NASB
28. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Now is there anyone who believes that only good things occur in the lives of Christians? I think not! Yet God is able to cause all thing {"whether necessary, accidental or voluntary" or anything else, good, bad, or indifferent} to work for good to those who belong to him. That is not "stoic determinism" that is the Love of God.

And with Romans 8:29, 30:
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

What a false person you are, you should be ashamed, but I know you never will.

Show where I ever accused God of evil. Show it.

You can't do it, you flat out lie, and you know it.

It is your doctrine that makes God the author of sin. Great scholars for hundreds of years have been saying Calvinism/Reformed theology makes God the author of sin. Simply denying the logical conclusions of your doctrine does not get you off the hook. Criminals always deny their crimes.

Show where I have ever accused God of evil.

 

It may be helpful to notice that some calvinists (and their usage of the word may not immediately tell you which they believe) would use the word or ordain to possibly mean 2 different things:
1. God Ordained that Adam be created (ie, planned it, did it, it was all God.
2. God ordained that Adam sin (ie, new it would occur based on giving adam the choice, and allowed it to happen, ie, did not create a world in which adam would not sin.)

I believe many Cal/DoG, whatever, would hold to this kind of ordaining...that God ordains whatever comes to be, sometimes by causing it, and other times (as in cases of sin), allowing it. I think this seems to be where herald is, I'm not sure about Icon...he may not be willing to simply say "God allows free people to make evil choices." (perhaps he will tell us).

This was stated in one of the things Icon quoted:

Now, this does not completely explain verses like Acts 4:27-28 very well. But niether does ANY explanation other than God's direct orchestrating of the crucifixion, sinful actions included.

In the end, I tend to agree with Herald that God's Sovereignty over creation and man's real choices will be impossible to reconcile.

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ALSO...based on the above, for winman, I think there is a 3rd option:

#3 Herald and icon are not using the word "decreed" to mean commanded...they are using it to mean "ordained" in the sense of allowing it to come to pass for some higher purpose...Ie, in one sense, God "decrees" (commands) that Brothers should treat each other kindly...in another sense, God "decrees" (ordains to be, in this sense by allowing sin that he could easily have stopped) that Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery.

 

Could you put a name on those "Great Scholars"?

 

In reality, Both sides must face the tough question of why does God allow any to suffer, and even to be eternally lost, when it is within his power to save them? It is the old question that non-cals ask of cals about whether I might love my child more than God...but it goes both ways:

For Cal/Dog: Why doesn't God Elect and irresistibly call all sinners to repentance? If my son is not elect, and I desperately desire him to be saved, but God does not call him, but allows him to continue in rebellion till death and hell, do I love my son more than God does?

For non-cal: Why does God seem to value the individual's free will MORE than their eternal happiness and salvation. Surely any loving parent who saw their child running to destruction would, if it were within their power, overcome their child's stubborn will and turn them around...If God does not do this when it within his power, Do I love my son more than God?

(For the record, I don't think these questions can be adequately answered).

 

This was a good post and an honest post, quite refreshing compared to your comrade in Calvinism.

Why does God allow sin? Because God must allow us to make our own choices. It would be immoral for God to enslave us against our will. God must give us free will so that we can choose to love him, but this same free will necessarily provides that a man can choose to hate God. It cannot be avoided, even by God.

What did Jesus say about Jerusalem?

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Did Jesus desire to save all the inhabitants of Jerusalem? YES. Was he able? NO. The majority of Jews in Jerusalem rejected God and Jesus.

See, you are under the false impression that God can just do whatever he wants because he is God. You think God could force every person in Jerusalem to accept Jesus if he wanted to, but that is not what scripture tells us. Jesus wanted and desired to save these Jews, but he was not able. Why? Because God is MORAL. He cannot force someone to love him against his will.

Now, God could kill us all before we sin, but it sure would be a lonely universe. No, the scriptures show God is longsuffering and patient and desiring that all men come to repentance. God by necessity must put up with some degree of sin. The only other option is to kill us all.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Jesus said offences or sins must come, they cannot be avoided, even by God. Why? Because God is love and perfectly moral and must allow us to make our own choice whether we serve God, or rebel against him.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Calvinism exalts the sovereignty of God at the expense of his holiness. God is holy and just, he cannot force us to love him, thus sin cannot be avoided and is necessary.

 

This is the problem, trying to nail down a Calvinist on definitions is like trying to catch a smoke ring with a butterfly net.

A decree is a COMMAND. It is not a suggestion, it is not simply allowing something to happen.

Many Calvinist creeds such as the Presbyterian creed I posted say God UNCHANGEABLY ordains what must come to pass. There is no choice in any event that comes to pass. According to this creed, God unchangeably ordained or decreed this young man would kill 20 children. God made this decree before the young man was ever born. The man absolutely could not make any other choice, he had to desire to kill these children and carry through with it.

Calvinists want their cake and to eat it too, it does not work.

 

(For the record, I don't think these questions can be adequately answered) either!

 

God decrees are for His glory and good pleasure, and in all things, being worked per his Will, are always the best choice that can be made!

Do you deny that?