Featured Why the Doctrines of Grace is not Determinism

Your constant talebearing and misusing peoples words.....is far from honest and being such a paradigm of ethics...despite you tooting your own horn.

 

Congratulations Iconoclast! You finally spoke for yourself!

That wasn't so difficult was it?

The only problem is that you still haven't explained how God can decree what he has not commanded. According to the dictionary, a decree is a

"a legally binding command or decision entered on the court record (as if issued by a court or judge)"

A decree is not a suggestion, a decree is not simply allowing something to happen, a decree is a command or order, an edict, an official command, especially from a king.

Now God said he did not command the Jews to sacrifice their children to false idols, so how in the world could God have decreed this sin?

Either God decreed (which is a command) this sin to happen or he didn't, which is it?

Please answer that in your own words.

 

So are you arguing that if we allow that God IS the author of sin, then there would be no God? If so, then how do your statements below fit?

You say sin exists by God's Decreed plan and purpose. This author says God is the author of sin. Those statements appear to be the same, based on (1) common english usage of the words, & (2) the fact that the term "author of sin" is not used in scripture, and so must be defined using our english terms.

I know some of the Calvinistic confessions say something like (pardon my paraphrase): "God decrees all that comes to pass to bring about his good purposes, but this in no way makes God the author of evil."

BUT...how does what you said differ from God being the author of sin?

 

This should be a thread all by itself....but the short answer is...scripture declares Jesus the Author of salvation, not sin...

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus provides us with saving faith,and eternal salvation.He alone is responsible for the salvation of the elect.

While God has ordained that evil,sin, sinners, satan,would exist.....God at no time begins, or commands sin in them.His Holy nature cannot allow it.

Any who suggest such a possibility do not have a biblical grasp of God.

Everything that exists has been decreed to exist.

If your wife tries to bake you a carrot cake, but burns it to a crisp.....Is God to blame because he created carrots???

Now...biblically.....God allows Satan to afflict Job doing sinful evil things to JOB......God did not command Satan to sin....Satan sinned because he wanted to.

I will not quibble about words,definitions of author ,etc....Those who use the term author of sin do so as if to blame God for mans sin...usually to try and defend their IDOL of free will . There is no noble purpose....it is a sinful rebellion against revealed truth.

Here is an excellent treatment of the topic;
http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf

here is an bit of it:
That God is absolutely sovereign over all things, even evil, and uses such for his purpose and glory, is a scriptural fact: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isa. 45:7).5 God sent an evil spirit between the men of Shechem and Abimelech (Judg. 9:23–24). He sent an evil spirit to obsess King Saul (1 Sam. 16:14; 18:10; 19:9). He brought evil upon Israel for her sins (1 Kgs. 9:9). A lying spirit was sent by God to lead Ahab to his defeat and death (1 Kgs. 22:20–23). The Lord appointed the defeat of Ahithophel’s counsel that he might bring evil upon Absolom (2 Sam. 17:14). God turned the hearts of the Egyptians to hate the Israelites (Ps. 105:25). The greatest crime in history—the illegality of the trial, the abuse, shame, suffering, and death of the Son of God with all its attendant sin on the part of men—was predetermined by God (Lk. 22:22; Acts 2:23; 4:27–28). How can God do these things and yet remain holy, righteous and free from sin? The issues are two: the origin of sin and the problem of evil.

 

Winman

It is more beneficial if I quote others who were true masters of the scriptures....my thoughts are very limited.The scripture and teaching of it is the priority

Using a dictionary that speaks of a human decree, does not capture the biblical meaning at all.I posted one that we should consider,but looks as if
you did not look..so here it is:
http://www.theopedia.com/Decrees_of_God

I will open it for your reading pleasure.....

Theopedia


The decrees of God refer to His purpose or determination with respect to all that shall come to pass.
The Concept of God's Decree in Scripture

The word "decree" is found in Psalm 2:7, etc. In Ephesians 3:11 we read of His "eternal purpose." In Acts 2:23 of His "determinate counsel and foreknowledge." In Ephesians 1:9 of the mystery of His "will." In Romans 8:29 that He also did predestinate. In Ephesians 1:9 of His "good pleasure." God’s decrees are called His "counsel" to signify they are consummately wise. They are called God’s "will" to show He was under no control, but acted according to His own pleasure. When a man’s will is the rule of his conduct, it is usually capricious and unreasonable; but wisdom is always associated with "will" in the Divine proceedings, and accordingly, God’s decrees are said to be "the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11).
The Divine Decree is Singular

Louis Berkhof wrote,^[1]^

Though we often speak of the decrees of God in the plural, yet in its own nature the divine decree is but a single act of God. This is already suggested by the fact that the Bible speaks of it as a prothesis, a purpose or counsel. It follows also from the very nature of God. His knowledge is all immediate and simultaneous rather than successive like ours, and His comprehension of it is always complete. And the decree that is founded on it is also a single, all-comprehensive, and simultaneous act. As an eternal and immutable decree it could not be otherwise. There is, therefore, no series of decrees in God, but simply one comprehensive plan, embracing all that comes to pass. Our finite comprehension, however, constrains us to make distinctions, and this accounts for the fact that we often speak of the decrees of God in the plural. This manner of speaking is perfectly legitimate, provided we do not lose sight of the unity of the divine decree, and of the inseparable connection of the various decrees as we conceive of them

The decree of God is His purpose or determination with respect to future things. We have used the singular number as Scripture does (Rom 8:28, Eph 3:11), because there was only one act of His infinite mind about future things. But we speak as if there had been many, because our minds are only capable of thinking of successive revolutions, as thoughts and occasions arise, or in reference to the various objects of His decree, which being many seem to us to require a distinct purpose for each one. But an infinite understanding does not proceed by steps, from one stage to another: "Known unto God are all His works, from the beginning of the world" (Acts 15:18).

 

part two;
God's Decrees Concern Everything

The decrees of God relate to all future things without exception: whatever is done in time, was foreordained before time began. God’s purpose was concerned with everything, whether great or small, whether good or evil, although with reference to the latter we must be careful to state that while God is the Orderer and Controller of sin, He is not the Author of it in the same way that He is the Author of good. Sin could not proceed from a holy God by positive and direct creation, but only by decretive permission and negative action. God’s decree is as comprehensive as His government, extending to all creatures and all events. It was concerned about our life and death; about our state in time, and our state in eternity. As God works all things after the counsel of His own will, we learn from His works what His counsel is (was), as we judge of an architect’s plan by inspecting the building which was erected under his directions.
God's Decrees Are Comprehensive

God did not merely decree to make man, place him upon the earth, and then leave him to his own uncontrolled guidance; instead, He fixed all the circumstances in the lot of individuals, and all the particulars which will comprise the history of the human race from its commencement to its close. He did not merely decree that general laws should be established for the government of the world, but He settled the application of those laws to all particular cases. Our days are numbered, and so are the hairs of our heads. We may learn what is the extent of the Divine decrees from the dispensations of providence, in which they are executed. The care of Providence reaches to the most insignificant creatures, and the most minute events—the death of a sparrow, and the fall of a hair.

The Scriptures assert this of the whole system in general embraced in the divine decrees. Dan. 4:34, 35; Acts 17:26; Eph 1:11.
They affirm the same of fortuitous events. Prov. 16:33; Matt. 10:29, 30.
Also of the free actions of men. Eph. 2:10, 11; Phil. 2:13.
Even the wicked actions of men. Acts 2:23; 4:27, 28; 13:29; 1 Pet. 2:8; Jude 4; Rev. 17:17. As to the history of Joseph, compare Gen. 37:28, with Gen. 45:7, 8, and Gen. 50:20. See also Ps. 17:13, 14; Isa. 10:5, 15.

God's decrees are eternal

Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:4; 3:11; 1 Pet. 1:20; 2 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Cor. 2:7.

To suppose any of them to be made in time, is to suppose that some new occasion has occurred, some unforeseen event or combination of circumstances has arisen, which has induced the Most High to form a new resolution. This would argue that the knowledge of the deity is limited, an that He is growing wiser in the progress of time—which would be horrible blasphemy. No man who believes that the Divine understanding is infinite, comprehending the past, the present, and the future, will ever assent to the erroneous doctrine of temporal decrees. God is not ignorant of future events which will be executed by human volitions; He has foretold them in innumerable instances, and prophecy is but the manifestation of His eternal prescience. Scripture affirms that believers were chosen in Christ before the world began (Eph. 1:4), yea, that grace was "given" to them then (2 Tim. 1:9).
They are wise

Wisdom is shown in the selection of the best possible ends and of the fittest means of accomplishing them. That this character belongs to the decrees of God is evident from what we know of them. They are disclosed to us by their execution, and every proof of wisdom in the works of God is a proof of the wisdom of the plan, in conformity to which they are performed. As the Psalmist declared, "O Lord, how manifold are Thy works! in wisdom hast Thou made them all" (Ps. 104:24). It is indeed but a very small part of them which falls under our observation, yet, we ought to proceed here as we do in other cases, and judge of the whole by the specimen, of what is unknown, by what is known. He who perceives the workings of admirable skill in the parts of a machine which he has an opportunity to examine, is naturally led to believe that the other parts are equally admirable. In like manner should we satisfy our minds as to God’s works when doubts obtrude themselves upon us, and repel the objections which may be suggested by something which we cannot reconcile to our notions of what is good and wise. When we reach the bounds of the finite and gaze toward the mysterious realm of the infinite, let us exclaim. "O the depth of the riches! both of the wisdom and knowledge of God" (Rom. 11:33).
They are Free

"Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counselor hath taught Him? With whom took He counsel, and who instructed Him, and taught Him in the path of judgment, and taught Him knowledge, and showed to Him the way of understanding?" (Isa. 40:13,14). God was alone when He made His decrees, and His determinations were influenced by no external cause. He was free to decree or not to decree, and to decree one thing and not another. This liberty we must ascribe to Him who is supreme, independent, and sovereign in all His doings.
They are Sovereign

Isa. 40:13, 14; Dan. 4:35; Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom. 9:11, 15-18; Eph. 1:5, 11.
They are absolute and unconditional

The execution of them is not suspended upon any condition which may, or may not be, performed. In every instance where God has decreed an end, He has also decreed every means to that end. The One who decreed the salvation of His elect also decreed to work faith in them (2 Thess. 2:13). "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure" (Isa. 46:10): but that could not be, if His counsel depended upon a condition which might not be performed. But God "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11).

Ps. 33:11; Prov. 19:21; Isa. 14:24, 27 ; 46:10; Rom. 9:11; Isa. 46:9.
They include the means

Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2.
They preserve human responsibility

Scripture plainly teaches that man is a responsible creature and answerable for his actions. And if our thoughts are formed from God’s Word the maintenance of the one will not lead to the denial of the other. That there is a real difficulty in defining where the one ends and the other begins, is freely granted. This is ever the case where there is a conjunction of the Divine and the human. Real prayer is indited by the Spirit, yet it is also the cry of a human heart. The Scriptures are the inspired Word of God, yet were they written by men who were something more than machines in the hand of the Spirit. Christ is both God and man. He is Omniscient, yet "increased in wisdom" (Luke 2:52). He was Almighty, yet was "crucified through weakness" (2 Cor. 13:4). He was the Prince of life, yet He died. High mysteries are these, yet faith receives them unquestioningly.

Gen. 50:20; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:27, 28.
They determine the free actions of men

Acts 4:27, 28 ; Eph. 2:10.
They secure conversion and the conditions for final salvation

Eph. 2:8 ; Phil. 2:13; 2 Tim. 2:25.
They render events certain

Matt. 16:21; Luke 18:31-33; 24:46; Acts 2:23; 13:29; 1 Cor. 11:19.
Objections to the Doctrine of the Decrees
They are really objections to God's Foreknowledge

 

part two;
God's Decrees Concern Everything

The decrees of God relate to all future things without exception: whatever is done in time, was foreordained before time began. God’s purpose was concerned with everything, whether great or small, whether good or evil, although with reference to the latter we must be careful to state that while God is the Orderer and Controller of sin, He is not the Author of it in the same way that He is the Author of good. Sin could not proceed from a holy God by positive and direct creation, but only by decretive permission and negative action. God’s decree is as comprehensive as His government, extending to all creatures and all events. It was concerned about our life and death; about our state in time, and our state in eternity. As God works all things after the counsel of His own will, we learn from His works what His counsel is (was), as we judge of an architect’s plan by inspecting the building which was erected under his directions.
God's Decrees Are Comprehensive

God did not merely decree to make man, place him upon the earth, and then leave him to his own uncontrolled guidance; instead, He fixed all the circumstances in the lot of individuals, and all the particulars which will comprise the history of the human race from its commencement to its close. He did not merely decree that general laws should be established for the government of the world, but He settled the application of those laws to all particular cases. Our days are numbered, and so are the hairs of our heads. We may learn what is the extent of the Divine decrees from the dispensations of providence, in which they are executed. The care of Providence reaches to the most insignificant creatures, and the most minute events—the death of a sparrow, and the fall of a hair.

The Scriptures assert this of the whole system in general embraced in the divine decrees. Dan. 4:34, 35; Acts 17:26; Eph 1:11.
They affirm the same of fortuitous events. Prov. 16:33; Matt. 10:29, 30.
Also of the free actions of men. Eph. 2:10, 11; Phil. 2:13.
Even the wicked actions of men. Acts 2:23; 4:27, 28; 13:29; 1 Pet. 2:8; Jude 4; Rev. 17:17. As to the history of Joseph, compare Gen. 37:28, with Gen. 45:7, 8, and Gen. 50:20. See also Ps. 17:13, 14; Isa. 10:5, 15.

God's decrees are eternal

Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:4; 3:11; 1 Pet. 1:20; 2 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Cor. 2:7.

To suppose any of them to be made in time, is to suppose that some new occasion has occurred, some unforeseen event or combination of circumstances has arisen, which has induced the Most High to form a new resolution. This would argue that the knowledge of the deity is limited, an that He is growing wiser in the progress of time—which would be horrible blasphemy. No man who believes that the Divine understanding is infinite, comprehending the past, the present, and the future, will ever assent to the erroneous doctrine of temporal decrees. God is not ignorant of future events which will be executed by human volitions; He has foretold them in innumerable instances, and prophecy is but the manifestation of His eternal prescience. Scripture affirms that believers were chosen in Christ before the world began (Eph. 1:4), yea, that grace was "given" to them then (2 Tim. 1:9).
They are wise

Wisdom is shown in the selection of the best possible ends and of the fittest means of accomplishing them. That this character belongs to the decrees of God is evident from what we know of them. They are disclosed to us by their execution, and every proof of wisdom in the works of God is a proof of the wisdom of the plan, in conformity to which they are performed. As the Psalmist declared, "O Lord, how manifold are Thy works! in wisdom hast Thou made them all" (Ps. 104:24). It is indeed but a very small part of them which falls under our observation, yet, we ought to proceed here as we do in other cases, and judge of the whole by the specimen, of what is unknown, by what is known. He who perceives the workings of admirable skill in the parts of a machine which he has an opportunity to examine, is naturally led to believe that the other parts are equally admirable. In like manner should we satisfy our minds as to God’s works when doubts obtrude themselves upon us, and repel the objections which may be suggested by something which we cannot reconcile to our notions of what is good and wise. When we reach the bounds of the finite and gaze toward the mysterious realm of the infinite, let us exclaim. "O the depth of the riches! both of the wisdom and knowledge of God" (Rom. 11:33).
They are Free

"Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counselor hath taught Him? With whom took He counsel, and who instructed Him, and taught Him in the path of judgment, and taught Him knowledge, and showed to Him the way of understanding?" (Isa. 40:13,14). God was alone when He made His decrees, and His determinations were influenced by no external cause. He was free to decree or not to decree, and to decree one thing and not another. This liberty we must ascribe to Him who is supreme, independent, and sovereign in all His doings.
They are Sovereign

Isa. 40:13, 14; Dan. 4:35; Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom. 9:11, 15-18; Eph. 1:5, 11.
They are absolute and unconditional

The execution of them is not suspended upon any condition which may, or may not be, performed. In every instance where God has decreed an end, He has also decreed every means to that end. The One who decreed the salvation of His elect also decreed to work faith in them (2 Thess. 2:13). "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure" (Isa. 46:10): but that could not be, if His counsel depended upon a condition which might not be performed. But God "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11).

Ps. 33:11; Prov. 19:21; Isa. 14:24, 27 ; 46:10; Rom. 9:11; Isa. 46:9.
They include the means

Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2.
They preserve human responsibility

Scripture plainly teaches that man is a responsible creature and answerable for his actions. And if our thoughts are formed from God’s Word the maintenance of the one will not lead to the denial of the other. That there is a real difficulty in defining where the one ends and the other begins, is freely granted. This is ever the case where there is a conjunction of the Divine and the human. Real prayer is indited by the Spirit, yet it is also the cry of a human heart. The Scriptures are the inspired Word of God, yet were they written by men who were something more than machines in the hand of the Spirit. Christ is both God and man. He is Omniscient, yet "increased in wisdom" (Luke 2:52). He was Almighty, yet was "crucified through weakness" (2 Cor. 13:4). He was the Prince of life, yet He died. High mysteries are these, yet faith receives them unquestioningly.

Gen. 50:20; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:27, 28.
They determine the free actions of men

Acts 4:27, 28 ; Eph. 2:10.
They secure conversion and the conditions for final salvation

Eph. 2:8 ; Phil. 2:13; 2 Tim. 2:25.
They render events certain

Matt. 16:21; Luke 18:31-33; 24:46; Acts 2:23; 13:29; 1 Cor. 11:19.
Objections to the Doctrine of the Decrees
They are really objections to God's Foreknowledge

 

part 3
Jonathan Edwards wrote,

“ Whether God has decreed all things that ever come to pass or not, all that own the being of a God, own that He knows all things beforehand. Now, it is self-evident that if He knows all things beforehand, He either doth approve of them or doth not approve of them; that is, He either is willing they should be, or He is not willing they should be. But to will that they should be is to decree them.

Finally, attempt to assume and then contemplate the opposite. To deny the Divine decrees would be to predicate a world and all its concerns regulated by undesigned chance or blind fate. Then what peace, what assurance, what comfort would there be for our poor hearts and minds? What refuge would there be to fly to in the hour of need and trial? None at all. There would be nothing better than the black darkness and abject horror of atheism. O my reader, how thankful should we be that everything is determined by infinite wisdom and goodness! What praise and gratitude are due unto God for His Divine decrees. It is because of them that "we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose" (Rom. 8:28). Well may we exclaim, "For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen" (Rom 11:36).
"It is inconsistent with the moral freedom of man" - Louis Berkhof

Some have raised this as an objection to the doctrine of the decrees of God. This is what Louis Berkhof has to say in response:

“ Man is a free agent with the power of rational self-determination. He can reflect upon, and in an intelligent way choose, certain ends, and can also determine his action with respect to them. The decree of God however, carries with it necessity. God has decreed to effectuate all things or, if He has not decreed that, He has at least determined that they must come to pass. He has decided the course of man's life for him. In answer to this objection it may be said that the Bible certainly does not proceed on the assumption that the divine decree is inconsistent with the free agency of man. It clearly reveals that God has decreed the free acts of man, but also that the actors are none the less free and therefore responsible for their acts, Gen. 50:19,20; Acts 2:23; 4:27,28. It was determined that Jews should bring about the crucifixion of Jesus; yet they were perfectly free in their wicked course of action, and were held responsible for this crime. There is not a single indication is Scripture that the inspired writers are conscious of a contradiction in connection with these matters. They never make an attempt to harmonize the two. This may well restrain us from assuming a contradiction here, even if we cannot reconcile both truths. width="

"It takes away all motives for human exertion" - Louis Berkhof

Some have raised this as an objection to the doctrine of the decrees of God. This is what Louis Berkhof has to say in response:

“ This objection is to the effect that people will naturally say that, if all things are bound to happen as God has determined them, they need not concern themselves about the future and need not make any efforts to attain salvation. But this is hardly correct. In the case of people who speak after that fashion this is generally the mere excuse of indolence and disobedience. The divine decrees are not addressed to men as a rule of action, and cannot be such a rule, since their contents become known only through, and therefore after, their realization. There is a rule of action, however, embodied in the law and in the gospel, and this puts men under obligation to employ the means which God has ordained.


"It makes God the author of sin" - Louis Berkhof

Some have raised this as an objection to the doctrine of the decrees of God. This is what Louis Berkhof has to say in response:

This, if true, would naturally be an insuperable objection, for God cannot be the author of sin. This follows equally from Scripture, Ps. 92:15; Eccl. 7:29; Jas. 1:13; 1 John 1:5, from the law of God which prohibits all sin, and from the holiness of God. But the charge is not true; the decree merely makes God the author of free moral beings, who are themselves the authors of sin. God decrees to sustain their free agency, to regulate the circumstances of their life, and to permit that free agency to exert itself in a multitude of acts, of which some are sinful. For good and holy reasons He renders these sinful acts certain, but He does not decree to work evil desires or choices efficiently in man. The decree respecting sin is not an efficient but a permissive decree, or a decree to permit, in distinction from a decree to produce, sin by divine efficiency. No difficulty attaches to such a decree which does not also attach to a mere passive permission of what He could very well prevent, such as the Arminians, who generally raise this objection, assume. The problem of God's relation to sin remains a mystery for us, which we are not able to solve. It may be said, however, that His decree to permit sin, while it renders the entrance of sin into the world certain, does not mean He takes delight in it; but only that He deemed it wise, for the purpose of His self-revelation, to permit moral evil, however abhorrent it may be to His nature.

 

12strings

from the 1689 confession of faith:
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

 

Winman,

I have answered it,but you failed to see the answers.....
my own words would sound like this...but not as clear-

It is needful that this fact be always remembered.

1. Since, on account of the ignorance of man, there must be much in connection with this subject, which cannot be comprehended; because
(1.) man's finite knowledge cannot compass the nature, and mode, and reasons of the will, and action of the infinite God,
(2.) because of the difficulty of reconciling the free agency and responsibility of man, with the pre-existent knowledge and purposes of God, and
(3.) because of the perplexities which arise from the existence of sin in a world planned, created and governed by a holy, all-wise, and almighty God.

2. The same fact should also not be forgotten, because of the natural corruption of the human heart, which makes it
(1.) revolt against the sovereignty of God,
(2.) seek refuge from the condemnation justly due to sin, and
(3.) endeavor to find excuses for continuance therein.

It is our duty, therefore,
(1.) to seek to learn all the facts made known by reason and revelation,
(2.) to accept them,
(3.) to recognize them as the testimony of God,
4.) to admit that our knowledge is still imperfect,
(5.) to believe that further information will still further remove the difficulties,
(6.) to refuse on account of the difficulties to reject what God has actually taught, and
(7.) amid all, to believe that whatever that teaching is, it must accord with justice, wisdom and holy perfection, because it is God of whom these things are affirmed.

winman...from post8
Do you actually believe that the biblical God ....does not know something ???
Do you actually believe God needs to learn anything????
Do you believe anything exists that the biblical God does not fully control??
Do you believe the biblical God can be in anyway...surprised???

 

12 Strings, you are seeing clearly. The problem is that Calvinist "scholars" talk out of both sides of their mouth. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want God to decree every single thing that happens so that it must UNCHANGEABLY take place, and yet not have God as the author of sin.

I know this is Presbyterian, but a Calvinist is a Calvinist. The word to note is "unchangeably". What this means is that before any of us was born, God had already decreed what each man will do, and it cannot be changed, even by the man himself. If a man murders 20 children, God ordained it and it cannot be changed. Yes, they will say the man chose of his own free will to kill these children, but if you press them they will eventually tell you that God ordained this killer's very thoughts.

It is all DOUBLETALK plain and simple. But you will never get a Calvinist like Iconoclast to admit that his doctrine is a contradiction. NEVER.

 

So...lets see.Several posts with all kinds of verses and teaching and your response is :
1] blame God for mans sin

2]ignorantly...willfully ignorant....mis -state the whole position

3] then the personal attack

You show you are not to be taken seriously at all.There is no credibility in anything you post here. Go back to sleep and try to start the day over without blaming the biblical God for a change.:wavey:

 

How did I misstate that whatsoever God ordains will UNCHANGEABLY come to pass?

If your doctrine is true, God ordained this fellow would murder 20 children the other day. God ordained this before the killer was ever born. The killer could not help but have the desire to kill these children, it was unchangeably ordained by God before he was born if your doctrine is true. He could not change his mind, he could not decide not to commit this crime, he MUST have the desire to kill these children and he must perform it.

I am not misrepresenting your doctrine at all.

Why don't you have the courage to call a spade a spade like that Vincent Cheung fellow? At least he is honest and consistent.

If you can't stand the heat, maybe you should get out of the kitchen.

 

And what you are trying to do is convince yourself that a contradiction that cannot possibly be true is true. You convince yourself this impossibility is true, but it is a mystery which no man can understand.

I posted three verses from Jeremiah where God said he never commanded the Jews to sacrifice their children to false gods, yet that is what they were doing. You have only two options here;

#1 God told a lie, God decreed (commanded) that these Jews sacrifice their children to idols before they were born.

#2 Your doctrine has more holes in it than the Titanic.

I go with #2

 

Herald,
Glad you had safe travel and a good visit. Your trip was what I do each day,or on this trip,each night.lol I am in south central wyoming now,going to oregon for tues morning..lol....I was laughing when you said you were going there...I was returning from Miami the other day when you were heading down.....I should have set up a meeting....but did not want to slow down your visit.
I agree hyper cal is error, taking the balanced biblical truth and pressing it ,in the flesh.
Arminianism with their wounded Adam....starts wrong and never recovers.

I am enjoying looking at the verses on this topic once again,despite those who just seem to want to disrupt,rather than edify.

Sorry if I derailed your thread while you were away....but this has happened before,lol

Yes...only revealed truth belongs to us.Scripture tells us what we need to know ....not everything we want to speculate on.


I cringe when they ask me to answer with my own words,rather than look at some of the links posted.Many in the church do not value gifted saints who have gone before us and left an abundance of helpful works.

Just downloaded several messages from sermonaudio.Thats what i will listen to during my next driving shift....I will go from here past Boise , if i do not have to go through more snow conditions.....just a few hours of it last night.

If you sickness keeps you from live attendance,so as to not infect any of the saints...remember the live webcasts on sermonaudio...have a blessed Lord's Day

 

You do not bring any heat at all. You trample the word of God under your feet and demonstrate a complete inability to interact with the teaching offered.My hope is that others have been able to study these issues.

You and a few kindred spirits seek to blame God for mans sin. I have no time for that.You did not look up the verses did you...or as you call it...verbaige.

 

Winman I respect Heralds honesty. The fact is that there is simply no way to fully boxGod in our logical minds. We take all Scripture and truth God reveals to us and have our varying levels of understanding, but to try to logically understand how God is God is not going yo come out pretty. If you would use your methods:

1. Dont read books or listen to other teachers ( although i know you probably dont believe this)
2. Try to logically understand everything to its final question (even if scripture stops)

You then would never have come to believe in the trinity or other theological truths revealed in the Bible.

We all are guilty at times here.

I think its a method issue and of course our sin that blinds us in understanding.

Ill admit that your logical end to understanding how God can be good and decree everything (including evil) is not logical in our minds. I have news for you, take your logic and try to understand how evil is present at all with a good God and you'll come to this conclusion like Bill Maher and many atheists do:

"Why all the games, why not create all people in heaven in perfect knowledge apart from sin with no fallen earth or hell?"

It makes no logical sense to me bc if I was God everyone would be in heaven and sin would have never existed.

Yet God did it. Even if free will was the answer why let it happen? Tragedy after tragedy.

See winman, in the deepest sense you can always blame God.

As for my view, God is totally in control, period. I have no idea how He controls evil, but He does. Even the tornado that kills a nursery of infants, God is in control. Nothing happens apart from his will. Logically i run into issues, but is it my falty assumptions or traps i set for God or is the Bible true and Im missing something? I have to come to points where I humbly say, I believe, Ill keep thinking, but ok God. I accept paradox, like the trinity, and ill keep going from here. Who knows maybe it will make more sense later, or ill see something more clearly.

 

Ezekiel 28...I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”
11The word of the Lord came to me: 12*“Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:...
14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15You were blameless in your ways
till wickedness was found in you.

Jeremiah 23
16This is what the Lord Almighty says:
“Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you;
they fill you with false hopes.
They speak visions from their own minds,
not from the mouth of the Lord.
17They keep saying to those who despise me,
‘The Lord says: You will have peace.’
And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts
they say, ‘No harm will come to you.’
to see or to hear his word?
Who has listened and heard his word?
will burst out in wrath,
a whirlwind swirling down
on the heads of the wicked.
20The anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he fully accomplishes
the purposes of his heart.
In days to come
you will understand it clearly.
21I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
22But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2
2 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

Ezekiel 18
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Deuteronomy 30:
The Offer of Life or Death
11Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life...

Romans 10
5Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8*But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

God gave man a free agency that can do what is in the bounds God has placed before us. There will be no way for us to go against the will of God for us unless we have a free agency. That is the will of God to create us that way.

God is amazing He has the knowledge of good and evil like we have now, but we know through Jesus that with that not like us He will not sin.

Lucifer went against the will of God he was anointed, ordained to be a guardian, a cherub. He went against the will of God and was cast down. His wickedness was found.

Adam and Eve had no reason to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good. It never even crossed their minds and they were created good. It was the devil the wicked one that was found in him deceived Eve through the serpent and the devil is the murderer from the beginning not God.

God does not take any pleasure in the death of anyone but rather them to repent and live so repent and live, don't believe anyone who says you can't for you to repent and live is the will of God not your will. We must say not my will but your will be done.

2 Corinthians 3:12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.