Featured Why the Doctrines of Grace is not Determinism

Qualities of the Will of God

1. This will of God is most free and sovereign. God acted in His decree with the greatest freedom. He was not coerced for there is no dependence of the Creator upon His creation. God could do just as well without the things that exist as well as without those possible things that will never be. If God had never willed the creation to exist, he would not have injured it. He is not obliged to anyone outside of Himself, Rom 11:34,35 "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counsellor? Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" Besides, if God had not been free, He would not have had any deliberation, since coercion eliminates any need for deliberation.

2. This will of God is most effective. In a certain sense this decree is the cause of things happening, Psalm 135:6 "The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths." His will brings all things ordained by Him into actual existence at the right time without fail. His creative will merely says, "Let it be" and it is, as in the first chapter of Genesis.

3. Therefore this will of God is the first cause of all things. If we seek out the reason why things are, back to the original cause, we must find it in the decree, and determined by God's will. There may be many instrumental and intermediate causes willed by God to carry out His decree, but the ultimate cause of all is that decree. This may be seen in the creation, Rev 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honour and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." This is the reason for the new birth, James 1:18 "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth..." This may be seen in the application of His mercy, Rom 9:18 "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." God is not motivated by something he sees ahead of time in the creature.

4. Therefore the will of God is without a cause, that is to say, any cause outside of God Himself. Nothing outside of God can determine His will because nothing is greater than God, or before Him, or beyond Him. Matt 11:25,26 "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." Sometimes God may reveal to us His will for a particular thing and sometimes we can see that He created one thing for a purpose with regard to another. But if we ask what disposed God's will to create the universe? We must answer, because it was His will to do so.

5. This will makes the divine decree unalterable. He is an unchangeable God who sees that all things happen just as He determined, Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases." God's will cannot and will not be frustrated. If any act has been passed by the divine Legislature, so to speak, it stands ratified and will be enforced. Isa 43:13 "Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?"

6. Nevertheless this will of God does not lay any coercion on the creature, but only a certainty as to the outcome. Everything will happen as God's will has determined, but the freedom of people to choose their actions is not infringed. Indeed, the freedom of moral agents is ratified, because in His will he has determined that free agents will act freely. For example, in God's will it was impossible for the soldiers to break Christ's bones. But no coercion was laid upon them: they were free agents, who freely chose not to break them.

This might help you understand the decree or purpose of God.

 

"Gods decree, in as much as it concerneth man, is called Predestination: which is the decree of God, by the which he hath ordained all men to a certaine and everlasting estate: that is, either to salvation or condemnation, for his own glory."
—William Perkins, A Golden Chain: or, The Description of Theologie. (1608).

God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
Westminster Larger Catechism Q3

God did not simply decree to save sinners without determining the means to effectuate the decree. The means leading to the predetermined end were also decreed (Acts 2:23; Eph. 2:8; 1 Pet. 1:2). The absolute character of the decree follows from its eternity, its immutability, and its exclusive dependence on the good pleasure of God. It is denied by all Semi-Pelagians and Arminians.
Louis Berkhof Systematic Theology pg. 105

God "works all things after the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11). This "all things" includes the fall of sparrows (Matthew 10:29), the rolling of dice (Proverbs 16:33), the slaughter of his people (Psalm 44:11), the decisions of kings (Proverbs 21:1), the failing of sight (Exodus 4:11), the sickness of children (2 Samuel 12:15), the loss and gain of money (1 Samuel 2:7), the suffering of saints (1 Peter 4:19), the completion of travel plans (James 4:15), the persecution of Christians (Hebrews 12:4-7), the repentance of souls (2 Timothy 2:25), the gift of faith (Philippians 1:29), the pursuit of holiness (Philippians 3:12-13), the growth of believers (Hebrews 6:3), the giving of life and the taking in death (1 Samuel 2:6), and the crucifixion of his Son (Acts 4:27-28).
John Piper

“It is true, God’s will cannot be hindered of its effect, for then God would not be supremely blessed, but unhappy and miserable : all misery ariseth from a want of that which a nature would have, and ought to have : besides, if anything could frustrate God’s will, it would be superior to him : God would not be omnipotent, and so would lose the perfection of the Deity, and consequently the Deity itself ; for that which did wholly defeat God’s will, would be more powerful than he. But sin is a contradiction to the will of God’s revelation, to the will of his precept: and therein doth naturally tend to a superiority over God, and would usurp his omnipotence, and deprive him of his blessedness. For if God had not an infinite power to turn the designs of it to his own glory, but the will of sin could prevail, God would be totally deprived of his blessedness. Doth not sin endeavor to subject God to the extravagant and contrary wills of men, and make him more a slave than any creature can be? For the will of no creature, not the meanest and most despicable creature, is so much crossed, as the will of God is by sin (Isa. xliii. 24): ” Thou hast made me to serve with thy sins:” thou hast endeavored to make a mere slave of me by sin. Sin endeavors to subject the blessed God to the humor and lust of every person in the world.”
- Stephen Charnock

From monergism....

 

Well I suppose if that is his view he should express it just like any view you have.

 

I think both sides on this thread are working from different definitions of hyper-Calvinism. I suppose no definitive definition exists, but I have always been taught that the rejection of Evangelism & Missions was in fact the definitive factor in determining hyper-Calvinism. I believe it is a mistake to assume that a hyper-calvinist is simply "a really serious calvinist."

So, in my understanding, a "hyper-calvinist" who is incessantly evangelizing his neighbors and supporting world missions is not, in fact, a hyper calvinist at all, even if he does beleive in Absolute predestination and God's minute control of every aspect of history.


FURTHER, I THINK VINCENT CHEUNG HAS A VERY GOOD POINT HERE:

...After all: "Author of sin" is not a phrase found in scripture, and therefore must always be defined extra-biblically.

 

It's all really very simple once we begin to rightly divide the Scriptures. Salvation, the eternal one, the one purposed by the Great One in Three, or the Great Three in One, whichever is your preference, is all OF God, all action, purpose, and work is OF God, TO the elect sinners.

God caused His Son to be born of a virgin, at His own pre-appointed time and in His own pre-determined place, to redeem a people unto His Name, and these people are scattered ALL OVER TIME AND ALL OVER THE EARTH, little pinpricks of light in a sin-darkened world.

With ONE death, and ONE resurrection, and ONE shedding of His blood, the sins of these elect were atoned for, past, present, future, and ALL OF THESE elect redeemed and prepared for heaven and eternity by the Son, no thanks to any of them, no input from any of them, NOTHING demanded by God from any of them, in exchange for heaven.
ALL THE ELECT meaning all in EVERY AGE, past, present, future.
Their eternal salvation depended on the willingness of the Son to go up that cross in their stead to bear the punishment that was rightfully theirs, and the mercy of God on them, mercy and grace totally unmerited and totally and voluntarily given to them by God because it was His will for them.

WHO CAN LAY ANYTHING TO THE CHARGE OF GOD'S ELECT ?

However, these elect are creatures of time, descended from a fallen Adam, alienated from God and HIS WAY by their sin nature, possessed with a spirit DEAD in sin and trespasses, therefore, each and every one must be quickened, brought to life, by the Holy Spirit, and ONLY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, who does this regeneration apart from any means, whether written, or spoken, and who will lose NONE of these elect, notwithstanding their earthly and timely circumstances, bringing and drawing each and every one of these elect to Christ IN HIS OWN TIME AND WAY.

They must be taught THE WAY To worship God, the true God, IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH, therefore SAVING THEM from their false gods, false worships and the lies that surround them in this fallen world, and this God does through the GOSPEL, the preaching of the Word, the gathering of His people or as much as is humanly reached by the gospel, into clusters of called out ones, called church, where His Name is held in worship and highest regard, amidst the crooked and sinful generation wherever and whenever they are gathered as a body of believers not because of the hard work of any missionary, but because it is the will of God for them in that place (remember Paul and God saying he shouldn't leave Corinth because He, God, had much people there ?).

The obvious questions are : will everyone, will every elect, get to know Christ in this plane called time, as THE Savior, THE redeemer, THE master ?
will every elect be gathered into one united body in this plane called time ? will every elect learn the true doctrines that point them to a blessed timely relation with their Savior, thereby them receiving the blessings that come from such a relationship ?

The obvious answer is NO. Not everyone of those elect will reap the benefits of a gospel life.

But EVERYONE, no one slipping thru the cracks, will be in heaven when the time comes, either in their individual deaths, or when the Lord gathers His saints home.
Because their ETERNAL salvation is not determined by their conversions and earthly salvation on earth.

Divide the word correctly.
Put Christ high above every creature, every creature's work.

 

pinoy

I am not sure that I would put it like you have but Jesus Christ died for the Elect and God will bring all His Elect to Salvation!

 

thiose versings are speaking of God in the sense though that he knew what was happening beforehand, and they did NOT do what the lord comanded them to do!

Speaking of him in human like terms for our understanding!

God knows all things all times, how can he not ever know not what is happening?

He knows start to finish all things, doesn't He?

 

12strings

What do you think is a good point here? If this were true there would be no God...what are you thinking here?

 

Looking into the (P.O.E) "Problem of Evil" should resolve this issue from a philoshical and logical perspective concerning the existence of God.


From a Biblical perspective God is only "Omnibenevolent" as His attributes are thoroughly explained here:

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

 

Here is my definition of Hyper-Calvinism:
That God has purposed to save some, and they will be saved whether or not they ever hear the gospel.

In other words, independently of means and independently of the gospel.

 

How about if I were to say this source of yours was “bound by this carnal philosophical demon”? Would that be acceptable and justified for me to do by your reasoning??? If not, why not???

BTW, It is a violation of board rules to question others salvation!

Hence, from my prepared statement regarding your conduct on this debate board:… and also reminds me of the tactics used by cult members who commonly go about threatening with words or by use "your highlighted scriptural interpretations to suggest" their opponents aren't saved if they don't believe in your "special enlightenments".

Seems you’ve determined this man is not “bound by this carnal philosophical demon” on the bases of his “vital truths” according to what “reasoning” again? - That his philosophical interpretations agree with yours or is it maybe that he has been “specially enlightened” to understand these things as truth the same as you have been?

Either way it seems to boil down that you believe that he is not “bound by this carnal philosophical demon” because his “reasoning” agrees with yours and anyone who disagrees with by their "reasoning" is?

This goes to show a cultic pattern being that “you must believe as Icon or you are not saved” and any other "reasoning" is “bound by this carnal philosophical demon”.

Or is it that you are merely trying to suggest that my reasoning is “bound by this carnal philosophical demon”?

No matter how you add it up you have made the suggestion that I am “bound by this carnal philosophical demon”!!! Your reasoning is that I am“bound by this carnal philosophical demon”!!! This kind of suggestion is CLEARLY against board rules!

Thank for the opportunity to demonstrate by this example how you "slyly" use such tactics to continuously question your opponent's salvation while you go about your agenda promote your belief.

 

As usual, you parrot someone else. I get the impression you do not even understand your own doctrine, you seem unable to explain it in your own words.

All of this verbiage, and still you do not answer this simple question;

How can God decree or ordain something he never commanded?

Come on Icon, you can do it, you can speak for yourself. Please answer in your own words how God can decree or ordain something he never commanded.

 

Benjamin

You are free to express your opinion in any way you like. I will not stop or censor you.This quote by Steven Charnock is based on scripture but it does not offer as much scripture right here as i would like....so you can react or not react to it.

BTW, It is a violation of board rules to question others salvation!

Yes it is and I not do that would not do that as cannot see someones heart.With that in mind ...perhaps you should take care how you word your own posting likening a BB member to "cult like"....anything! like here:

Hence, from my prepared statement regarding your conduct on this debate board:… and also reminds me of the tactics used by cult members who commonly go about threatening with words or by use "your highlighted scriptural interpretations to suggest" their opponents aren't saved if they don't believe in your "special enlightenments".

Divine truth is revealed by the Spirit to the people of God.
All Christians know this to be so. To others it is not given.I would like to see all come to truth.God witholds truth from the proud..He resists them.

His reasoning is biblically based upon revealed truth.He starts with scripture then seeks to understand life based on scripture.
Someone afflicted by carnal reasoning and tormented by carnal reasoning...starts with himself, his proud thoughts,and then comes to scripture bring the baggage of carnal logic...then sits as judge over scripture and those who believe in God and His word.....Do you see the difference?

Having read some of Mr.Charnock I would conclude that he has been gifted much more than I or most in here have been. So I try to learn from him. All revelation and understanding of scripture comes from God to all christians who seek truth...humbly...and do not blame God for mans sin.

It might seem that way to you....you have many strange ideas.You recently accused Herald of the same thing.

I have not said that...it is you who claims such.

Now that you mention it......maybe you should read your posts and see if it is true of you.This might explain your sensitivity on this issue.Just saying!

You are trying the shoe on...maybe it fits, maybe not. If you speak of a thief in one of your posts...and i have not stolen anything...I would not be so sensitive about it as I did not steal. Why are you ascribing this to yourself? I have spoken to you about this in the past.I do think this is a very serious issue that could afflict a person.

Well Benjamin my friend...we all have our moments don't we. When I post and try to zero in on problems on a topic...you can rightly say there are times I go for ....a close shave....lol. No doubt about that.It is hard to discuss errors that could be damaging to a soul and not cause some discomfort.

If you have knicked by the razor of truth...i hope you do not find it too painful my friend.

 

I never thought of myself as a hyper-Calvinist, or a laid-back-Calvinist, or a Calvinist of any sort, but if God purposed to save anyone He will save them, otherwise He would not be God!

As I told pinoy!

 

Brother:

God will not simply just bring His elect to salvation.
In regards to eternal salvation, that is, having been spared from the eternal consequences of sin, He has already saved each and every one of them.
Christ died ONCE, for all.

In regards to (what we Primitive Baptists call) gospel or timely salvation, not every elect child of God will have this, because timely salvation is dependent on gospel instruction, and gospel instruction of God's people is to be undertaken by those called into the ministry, beginning with the apostles, and on down to preachers and teachers in the churches.
Obviously, there were no gospel preachers and teachers until there was a gospel to be preached and taught AFTER the Mt. Olivet marching orders were given to the apostles.
Obviously, also, unlike the Holy Spirit, who is God and Omnipresent, the apostles and those in the ministries are physically limited as to where they can be, when they can be there, how they can be there, and whom they are able to reach.
In addition, every second of every hour of every day, babies come into this world, many of whom are possibly among the elect, and not all will grow up to hear gospel instruction in their lifetime or in their locations, and some will grow up where the gospel is perhaps banned.
There are many earthly circumstances where the preaching of the gospel may be hindered and not benefit the children of God in this plane we call time.
So we see the infinite wisdom of God.
Eternal salvation all OF HIM, no demands from the sinner.
Gospel salvation to some of His elect, but not all, though ALL of His elect are beneficiaries of His grace and mercy in Christ.

 

Wrong! This board has rules that I strive to follow as well as maintaining ethics, being rational and showing some integrity in the way I debate. You make quite a revealing assumption there, Icon.

The mere fact that many board members have called "you" on questioning their salvation speaks for itself.

Your tactics aren't as cleaver as you think they are, even if you do manage to fly under the radar and continue with your assaults thinking , "You are free to express your opinion in any way you like."

 

Winman

.

As usual...you cannot understand what was offered , so now you say I am a parrot. Interact with the truth offered.You never answered my original questions back at you.....

Do you think anything at all happens apart from what God has decreed?

Your impression is based on your lack of proper regard for the scriptures.Do not worry about me...or my words....look for the truth
of scripture

I have answered your question but you look at the answer and do not see it.....Winman...I am not the lady in the Helen Keller story going over and over the same errors until you get it.
How can God decree or ordain something he never commanded?

Your answer is here...stop being lazy..read a couple of sentences at a time, think it over, look up the verses....you can see it if you want to.

 

You have never answered my question. And your copy and paste did not answer it either.

You cannot answer the question. Three times in Jeremiah God said that he did not command the Jews to sacrifice their children to false idols.

You believe God decreed this sin, but God said he never commanded it. So I ask you how God can decree or ordain something he never commanded?

Truth is, you are not ABLE to answer this question.

 

So.....I can only express an opinion based on what you like...:laugh:

You twist my words and try to make them say otherwise,but that is your frustration at being called for your....as you say ...tactics.
Nice try.....but you have failed again.

 

Winman

You call scripture and teaching...verbiage....no wonder you cannot find truth.

My own words.
All that exists ,exists by God's decreed plan and purpose.

Nothing exists outside of what God has decreed .

This eternal purpose is made known to the church.EPH3er :9-11

Sin and evil exist under God's control.....and yet......pay attention.....
God does not sin, or COMMAND sin. He cannot in any way.

For anyone to suggest otherwise reveals an evil heart of unbelief.

Nothing exists outside of God's control.

God alone defines everything that exists.


He uses sinners and the evil they do for his purpose , but will by no means clear the guilty...they are fully responsible.

I have given scriptural examples of this, and posted several links for you to study. If you do not interact with them...that is on you and you will remain in ignorance ......


http://www.theopedia.com/Decrees_of_God