Featured The greatest error on bb

Let me approach it this way, Luke.

Would Peter's walking on water be logical if God (or any supernatural being) did not exist? Would any miracle be logical if God (or any supernatural being) did not exist?

Does your logic rest on the faith of His existing and thus His abilities? Or does your logic stand alone and apart from faith all together?

In my experience, our faith must inform our logic, not the other way around.

 

Luke, maybe you missed this...

We are speaking about the logic of natural laws being violated. So, while the principle of logic itself may not be violated by a supernatural miracles, like walking on water, it certainly presumes the existence of a Being who is able to carry out such acts.

In other words, the violation of natural law is not illogical for a Christian because we presume (by faith) One exists who is able to violate such laws. That is why I kept referring you back to the eventuality of the appeal to faith, not logic.

Your denial of the logical possibilities of an contra-causally free moral choice is on the basis that it is an 'uncaused cause' (something you deem illogical), yet when pressed you must eventually accept the existence of an uncaused Cause by faith...NOT LOGIC.

Understand my point?

I just wanted to add that natural physical laws are actually the products of logic themselves, formed by reason from observable/measurable facts that are well established and uncontroversial. Thus, violating these physical laws is also a violation of logic (unless, as I noted, there is an accepted premise that One exists who is able to violate these physical laws).

 

Since we trust in God over our own understanding and God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned faith preceded even though the logic is right in front of us. It is not there if you do not see it you must see it by faith.

 

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

1 Peter 1:8
Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Hebrews 11:1
[ Faith in Action ] Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.


I came to Jesus as a blind trying my best to not lean on my own understanding but trusted in Him and His word my only life. I understood nothing and trust Him to lead this blind man to the truth. It is a shame to me to come to Him with truth i can't have without Him in my life. He is our truth and the truth is by faith in Him alone that comes and emanates from Him.

It is to believe in Him not to believe in us and what we want to believe.

If we come to Him confirming what we already believe that is what we will get.

 

I'm not sure how this addresses what I wrote. It may be helpful to do more of a line by line response rather than just writing another paragraph because I get the impression sometimes that you read a sentence or two, push the reply button and just start ranting about whatever enter's your mind rather than engaging my post.

Maybe I'm misreading you? But that is what it appears to be to me. You dismissed everything from that second post because of that one line relating back to contra-causality, but that really wasn't what it was about, another example of what I'm talking about.

Can you engage the points I made about miracles being illogical if God didn't exist? Or the point about how our logic is informed by our faith in God's very existence? That DOES relate very much to this thread...

 

These are the questions I want you to address, if you can please.:

Would Peter's walking on water be logical if God (or any supernatural being) did not exist?

Would any miracle be logical if God (or any supernatural being) did not exist?

 

What has God made created that He is revealing His Son through us we are a new creation created in Christ Jesus sent out as the temple of His Holy Spirit.

He is revealing Christ through us His new creation the old is gone and the new has come in.

We sacrifice everday day for us to live, we might not be killing the vegteble's and animal's ourselves but they are dying so we can live none the less.

We also need a death to live Spirutal, Jesus Christ and just like the food we must eat all of Christ to live Spiritually and not leave a crumb left. The blood is the life He lived and the flesh is every word He spoke. The Gospel has everthing we need to live Spiritual we learn the life He lived and the word He spoke.

 

How God is reavealing His invisible qualities through what He has made, as if He doesn't use us as well the new creation

 

Calvinist prayer: "Dear Lord, please grant my unregenerate friends the necessary logic so that they may be gifted the necessary faith, so that your irresistible grace will be necessarily applied, whereupon you will regenerate their lost soul. Amen."

Yep, sounds logical to me!

 

Exactly, now we are getting somewhere. Now we are addressing the framework of YOUR logic. Your logic is informed by your belief that God does in fact exist and has the powers revealed in scripture, thus miracles are logical in that framework of faith.

That is what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge. You and I are in agreement as to God being necessary and all those points, but we must recognize that not all accept that framework because of their lack of faith.

I agree, which is why faith in His existence (and revelation) is necessary for true logic.

 

Since God is revealing His invisible qualities through what He has made. I said one thing that is revealed through what He has made. We have something to open up to people about the Gospel. The Gospel is not the same God is revealing it through witness and messengers of the witness to the ends of the earth. The message is by faith in what they have not seen that you want to change what is by faith into logic. They have not seen all Jesus has done and heard all He has said they have to take it by faith not by logic. You are saying logic comes before faith. I say truth is there before us first, but we can't see all Jesus did we have to take it by faith the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Invisible qualities is seen through what is made, but that is