The greatest error on bb

[Skandelon]

Let me approach it this way, Luke.

Would Peter's walking on water be logical if God (or any supernatural being) did not exist? Would any miracle be logical if God (or any supernatural being) did not exist?

Does your logic rest on the faith of His existing and thus His abilities? Or does your logic stand alone and apart from faith all together?

In my experience, our faith must inform our logic, not the other way around.

 

[Skandelon]

Luke, maybe you missed this...

We are speaking about the logic of natural laws being violated. So, while the principle of logic itself may not be violated by a supernatural miracles, like walking on water, it certainly presumes the existence of a Being who is able to carry out such acts.

In other words, the violation of natural law is not illogical for a Christian because we presume (by faith) One exists who is able to violate such laws. That is why I kept referring you back to the eventuality of the appeal to faith, not logic.

Your denial of the logical possibilities of an contra-causally free moral choice is on the basis that it is an 'uncaused cause' (something you deem illogical), yet when pressed you must eventually accept the existence of an uncaused Cause by faith...NOT LOGIC.

Understand my point?

I just wanted to add that natural physical laws are actually the products of logic themselves, formed by reason from observable/measurable facts that are well established and uncontroversial. Thus, violating these physical laws is also a violation of logic (unless, as I noted, there is an accepted premise that One exists who is able to violate these physical laws).

 

[Luke2427]

Let me approach it this way, Luke.

Would Peter's walking on water be logical if God (or any supernatural being) did not exist? Would any miracle be logical if God (or any supernatural being) did not exist?

Does your logic rest on the faith of His existing and thus His abilities? Or does your logic stand alone and apart from faith all together?

In my experience, our faith must inform our logic, not the other way around.

Logic precedes faith.

If it is illogical it is not trustworthy.

If God can be something and not be that something at the same time then anything he says about himself can be true and not true all at the same time and therefore nothing he says can be trusted- hence you CANNOT have faith in Him.

It is BECAUSE God is logical- in other words BECAUSE he is internally consistent that we CAN TRUST him.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, maybe you missed this...

We are speaking about the logic of natural laws being violated. So, while the principle of logic itself may not be violated by a supernatural miracles, like walking on water, it certainly presumes the existence of a Being who is able to carry out such acts.

In other words, the violation of natural law is not illogical for a Christian because we presume (by faith) One exists who is able to violate such laws. That is why I kept referring you back to the eventuality of the appeal to faith, not logic.

Your denial of the logical possibilities of an contra-causally free moral choice is on the basis that it is an 'uncaused cause' (something you deem illogical), yet when pressed you must eventually accept the existence of an uncaused Cause by faith...NOT LOGIC.

Understand my point?

I just wanted to add that natural physical laws are actually the products of logic themselves, formed by reason from observable/measurable facts that are well established and uncontroversial. Thus, violating these physical laws is also a violation of logic (unless, as I noted, there is an accepted premise that One exists who is able to violate these physical laws).

This thread is getting long and debating the logic of contracausal free will vs the logic of hard determinism is really not the subject of this thread.

So let me recommend we start another thread addressing precisely that.

The purpose of this thread is simply to establish that true logic is invincible. God HIMSELF cannot violate it any more than God can contradict his own nature.

Therefore, God cannot be something and NOT be that something all at the same time.

The point here is that there is no point in discussing anything unless both parties YIELD to the necessity of logic in whatever we purport.

 

[psalms109:31]

Since we trust in God over our own understanding and God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned faith preceded even though the logic is right in front of us. It is not there if you do not see it you must see it by faith.

 

[Luke2427]

Since we trust in God over our own understanding and God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned faith preceded even though the logic is right in front of us. It is not there if you do not see it by faith.

Faith is not blind.

It is based on revealed truth that we judge to be perfectly logical.

We observe creation and we conclude there must be a God.

We observe the Bible and conclude that the God of its pages must be that God.

Then we trust him or we don't trust him.

But faith is not separate from logic. If it is then it is blind faith and it is useless because it is not real faith. Real faith means to be fully PERSUADED.

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith is not blind.

It is based on revealed truth that we judge to be perfectly logical.

We observe creation and we conclude there must be a God.

We observe the Bible and conclude that the God of its pages must be that God.

Then we trust him or we don't trust him.

But faith is not separate from logic. If it is then it is blind faith and it is useless because it is not real faith. Real faith means to be fully PERSUADED.

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

1 Peter 1:8
Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Hebrews 11:1
[ Faith in Action ] Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.


I came to Jesus as a blind trying my best to not lean on my own understanding but trusted in Him and His word my only life. I understood nothing and trust Him to lead this blind man to the truth. It is a shame to me to come to Him with truth i can't have without Him in my life. He is our truth and the truth is by faith in Him alone that comes and emanates from Him.

It is to believe in Him not to believe in us and what we want to believe.

If we come to Him confirming what we already believe that is what we will get.

 

[Luke2427]

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

1 Peter 1:8
Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Hebrews 11:1
[ Faith in Action ] Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.


I came to Jesus as a blind trying my best to not lean on my own understanding but trusted in Him and His word my only life. I understood nothing and trust Him to lead this blind man to the truth. It is a shame to me to come to Him with truth i can't have without Him in my life. He is our truth and the truth is by faith in Him alone that comes and emanates from Him.

It is to believe in Him not to believe in us and what we want to believe.

If we come to Him confirming what we already believe that is what we will get.

Romans 1

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,

 

[Skandelon]

Logic precedes faith.

If it is illogical it is not trustworthy.

If God can be something and not be that something at the same time then anything he says about himself can be true and not true all at the same time and therefore nothing he says can be trusted- hence you CANNOT have faith in Him.

It is BECAUSE God is logical- in other words BECAUSE he is internally consistent that we CAN TRUST him.

I'm not sure how this addresses what I wrote. It may be helpful to do more of a line by line response rather than just writing another paragraph because I get the impression sometimes that you read a sentence or two, push the reply button and just start ranting about whatever enter's your mind rather than engaging my post.

Maybe I'm misreading you? But that is what it appears to be to me. You dismissed everything from that second post because of that one line relating back to contra-causality, but that really wasn't what it was about, another example of what I'm talking about.

Can you engage the points I made about miracles being illogical if God didn't exist? Or the point about how our logic is informed by our faith in God's very existence? That DOES relate very much to this thread...

 

[Skandelon]

These are the questions I want you to address, if you can please.:

Would Peter's walking on water be logical if God (or any supernatural being) did not exist?

Would any miracle be logical if God (or any supernatural being) did not exist?

 

[Luke2427]

I'm not sure how this addresses what I wrote. It may be helpful to do more of a line by line response rather than just writing another paragraph because I get the impression sometimes that you read a sentence or two, push the reply button and just start ranting about whatever enter's your mind rather than engaging my post.

Maybe I'm misreading you? But that is what it appears to be to me. You dismissed everything from that second post because of that one line relating back to contra-causality, but that really wasn't what it was about, another example of what I'm talking about.

Can you engage the points I made about miracles being illogical if God didn't exist? Or the point about how our logic is informed by our faith in God's very existence? That DOES relate very much to this thread...

Nothing would be logical if God did not exist.

You are asking me to imagine a realm which is unimaginable because God is a necessary being.

It is like asking would something be logical if logic did not exist.

Miracles would not be logical if God did not exist because logic could not exist without God for miracles to BE logical and neither could miracles exist. Nothing would be logical if God did not exist.

 

[psalms109:31]

Romans 1

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,

What has God made created that He is revealing His Son through us we are a new creation created in Christ Jesus sent out as the temple of His Holy Spirit.

He is revealing Christ through us His new creation the old is gone and the new has come in.

We sacrifice everday day for us to live, we might not be killing the vegteble's and animal's ourselves but they are dying so we can live none the less.

We also need a death to live Spirutal, Jesus Christ and just like the food we must eat all of Christ to live Spiritually and not leave a crumb left. The blood is the life He lived and the flesh is every word He spoke. The Gospel has everthing we need to live Spiritual we learn the life He lived and the word He spoke.

 

[Luke2427]

What has God made created that He is revealing His Son through us we are a new creation created in Christ Jesus sent out as the temple of His Holy Spirit.

He is revealing Christ through us His new creation the old is gone and the new has come in.

We sacrifice everday day for us to live, we might not be killing the vegteble's and amnimal's ourselves but they are dying so we can live none the less.

We also need a death to live Spirutal, Jesus Christ and just like the food we must eat all of Christ to live Spiritually and not leave a crumb left. The blood is the life He lived and the flesh is every word He spoke. The Gospel has everthing we need to live Spiritual we learn the life He lived and the word He spoke.

How is this, especially the last half of it, related to what we are talking about?

 

[psalms109:31]

How is this, especially the last half of it, related to what we are talking about?

How God is reavealing His invisible qualities through what He has made, as if He doesn't use us as well the new creation

 

[Luke2427]

How God is reavealing His invisible qualities through what He has made, as if He doesn't use us as well the new creation

How does that relate to logic and faith which is what you and I began to discuss together on the last page?

 

[InTheLight]

Originally Posted by Luke2427 View Post
Logic precedes faith.

Calvinist prayer: "Dear Lord, please grant my unregenerate friends the necessary logic so that they may be gifted the necessary faith, so that your irresistible grace will be necessarily applied, whereupon you will regenerate their lost soul. Amen."

Yep, sounds logical to me!

 

[Luke2427]

Calvinist prayer: "Dear Lord, please grant my unregenerate friends the necessary logic so that they may be gifted the necessary faith, so that your irresistible grace will be necessarily applied, whereupon you will regenerate their lost soul. Amen."

Yep, sounds logical to me!

It really is.

The "non-cal" prayer:

"Oh God please save my lost friends."

God's answer, "Ease up will ya'? You know I am always doing all I can to save everybody. If I could have saved him I would have by now! I CAN'T! Even if I could do more than I am already doing to save him than I am doing to save anybody else I wouldn't be fair to everybody and you know the most important thing about me is that I am fair to all sinners! since I either can't or won't do more than I have been doing why bother asking me???""

 

[Skandelon]

Nothing would be logical if God did not exist.

Exactly, now we are getting somewhere. Now we are addressing the framework of YOUR logic. Your logic is informed by your belief that God does in fact exist and has the powers revealed in scripture, thus miracles are logical in that framework of faith.

That is what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge. You and I are in agreement as to God being necessary and all those points, but we must recognize that not all accept that framework because of their lack of faith.

Nothing would be logical if God did not exist.

I agree, which is why faith in His existence (and revelation) is necessary for true logic.

 

[Luke2427]

Exactly, now we are getting somewhere. Now we are addressing the framework of YOUR logic. Your logic is informed by your belief that God does in fact exist and has the powers revealed in scripture, thus miracles are logical in that framework of faith.

That is what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge. You and I are in agreement as to God being necessary and all those points, but we must recognize that not all accept that framework because of their lack of faith.

Why must we?

What does that have to do with what we are talking about. The point of this thread is to acknowledge that the three basic laws of logic are truth and you and I both must bend our theology to suit them because they are of God- eternal and immutable.

 

[psalms109:31]

How does that relate to logic and faith which is what you and I began to discuss together on the last page?

Since God is revealing His invisible qualities through what He has made. I said one thing that is revealed through what He has made. We have something to open up to people about the Gospel. The Gospel is not the same God is revealing it through witness and messengers of the witness to the ends of the earth. The message is by faith in what they have not seen that you want to change what is by faith into logic. They have not seen all Jesus has done and heard all He has said they have to take it by faith not by logic. You are saying logic comes before faith. I say truth is there before us first, but we can't see all Jesus did we have to take it by faith the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Invisible qualities is seen through what is made, but that is