Featured Church discipline?

But this man did not offend the church so why should he make amends to them? According to dictionary.com, "amends" means "reparation or compensation for a loss, damage, or injury of any kind; recompense."

What damage, loss or injury did the church receive from this?

 

EVERY sin is a sin against God - but why must this man be dragged to the front of the sanctuary to make "amends"? Will that help him to understand what he has done and have someone counsel him and disciple him to be able to overcome this sin in his life?

We do not embrace sin or allow it to continue but we also don't drag every sin in front of the church unless it was a sin done directly to the church (stealing money would be one thing). But in this case, I believe what would be more productive would be to meet with him individually and find out what happened. What is the initial cause of this? Was it the alcohol that caused him to go crazy and break the law then escape from jail? Why the alcohol? Why does he feel the need to get drunk? There is a deeper thing going on than what has happened here and that needs to be addressed or else you will have either a man who begins to hide his sin better or a man who walks away from his faith.

Honestly, it is none of the "church's" business (I'm meaning the congregation, not the church as the organization). But absolutely the pastor and/or elders should be addressing this with the gentleman and deal with what is going on with the goal of restoring him to full fellowship with God. I just don't see how throwing the man on stage will do the same thing.

 

Then let God strike them dead. It wasn't the church who did so, did they?

Again, seek to restore. You cannot restore if the sin has not been dealt with.

How many restorations have you seen? I've seen many and my husband and I are counseling two situations right now with a possible third. None of these things have to do with the church's attention but it definitely has to do with civil sin. The issues are deeper than the civil sin and we hope to not only have these people forsaking their sin (which they are) but to also deal with other issues that gave them a lead to sin as they did. Much of it has come from being sexually abused as children and thus messing up the truth of what God has done for them. So we work with them. And the cases we've dealt with already have resulted in amazing testimonies for God. I wish I was free to tell you more about it but I can't at this point.

 

It was an offense to God but I don't see where it was an offense to the church congregation.

Do you have proof that they took pride in his actions?

So you know every sin of your congregation and make sure that every sin has been "amended" before they come into the church?

Let me ask you this: How many cases of sin have you dealt with and how many cases of restoration have you dealt with? I'm not talking "brushing under the rug" restoration (that is not restoration) but true, life changing restoration.

I've been a part of more than I can even count - and in just a short time. God's actually been dropping a few into our lap in the past week and MAN, it's so amazing to see what God does when restoration is dealt with properly. Not a dunk seat in front of the congregation but a true discipleship and life change. It's really actually humbling!

 

It is an offense to the congregation? Or is it something that needs to be dealt with between the leadership and the individual? I believe this idea of dragging the sinner in front of the congregation as the first step is unbiblical and unhealthy.

So, they must stand before the entire congregation if they got a speeding ticket? Because that is an offense to the whole church as well.

I have read it - in context, which you seem to be having a problem with. This is in the context of a man sleeping with his stepmother and is flaunting it in the church and the church is embracing it. I do believe that this is quite different. Now, if this man came to your church drunk and started shooting up the place, I would agree with you.

 

That would be an offense within the church and the police would be called and he would be taken from the church in handcuffs. We would counsel the victim and the offender would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. It would be quite a long time before the man would be allowed to darken our doorstep and that would only be after extensive counseling, after he pays his debt to society and he has dealt with the offense against the person that he offended. Then he would be allowed back into the church - with a shadow.

Then how do you know that there is pride?

Well, I'm not SB so I don't know. But I do know of MANY churches that practice church discipline and while it's not a fun thing, it is something that needs to be addressed.

That is wonderful but I'm not speaking of you but your congregation.

That is sinful and unbiblical. In our church, it is dealt with biblically and efficiently. Often it results in restoration but at times it has meant disfellowship. But we are open to restoration when and if the person returns and works through the steps to restoration.

What am I not being consistent on? Sin is sin is sin and it is to be dealt with. We use the Matthew 18 approach. You use the Matthew 18:17b approach but there is more than "tell it to the church" before that portion of Scripture.

 

What are the steps in Matthew 18? We have two different views here:

1 - Bring a "delegation" to the offender and demand that they stand before the church to "make amends".

2 - Go as an individual to speak to the person and see if he will listen to you. If he does not listen to you then you go to him with one or two others. If then he does not listen to you, THEN you go to the church.

OR uses step 1. The Bible uses step 2.