Church discipline?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jeff.....but what is the process for addressing the problem with the sinner? The church doesn't automatically excommunicate without investigating & trying to make it right with the offending individual correct? Nothing is done without the involvement of the sinner---ultimately its him or her that makes the choice & the ultimate goal is to correct & bring back to the fold.

 

[annsni]

You have judged everyone guilty except the guilty party. No one was dragged in front of the congregation. A delegation was sent to the man. He refused to come before the church. He was excluded since he left the church no choice!

The church had a choice to do it the Biblical way. They ran at him with a "delegation" which I do not see at all as the Biblical first step.

You are getting a little silly trying to make your point whatever it is!

John was pulled over for speeding and Mrs. Jones saw him. He brought dishonor to the church and thus he must stand before the entire church and make amends.

You are the one taking it out of context. The man was obviously a drunkard and a railer. He fit two of the things Paul mentioned in:

Yes, the man was a drunkard and a railer. Who was the individual who went to him first?

The church had no choice!!

Since they didn't follow Matthew 18 properly, they absolutely did.

 

[Old Union Brother]

Jeff.....but what is the process for addressing the problem with the sinner? The church doesn't automatically excommunicate without investigating & trying to make it right with the offending individual correct? Nothing is done without the involvement of the sinner---ultimately its him or her that makes the choice & the ultimate goal is to correct & bring back to the fold.

You are correct. We do not automatically excommunicate. We talk to the offender giving them an opportunity to explain his position or what happened. Generally the first statement that I make is Brother or Sister do you love the Church? Most of the time that takes care of the issue. Because if the answer is yes they will be willing to quit what they are doing and apoligize to the church. If it is no then obviously they have given a false witness about their experience of grace and did not repent.

If you want we will talk about this.

 

[Old Union Brother]

Annsni said

Since they didn't follow Matthew 18 properly, they absolutely did.

Not a Matthew 18 situation. You like so many others cannot distinguish between a trespass and sin.

Trespass- To commit any offense or to do any act that injures or annoys another; to violate any rule of rectitude to the injury of another.

Sin--The voluntary departure of a moral agent from a known rule of rectitude or duty, prescribed by God; any voluntary transgression of the divine law, or violation of a divine command; a wicked act; iniquity.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You are correct. We do not automatically excommunicate. We talk to the offender giving them an opportunity to explain his position or what happened. Generally the first statement that I make is Brother or Sister do you love the Church? Most of the time that takes care of the issue. Because if the answer is yes they will be willing to quit what they are doing and apoligize to the church. If it is no then obviously they have given a false witness about their experience of grace and did not repent.

If you want we will talk about this.

It's not me fighting you on this one brother...a true church of Christ is one that is a community of believers all working together to glorify the Lord & with the ultimate goal to be sanctified. Too often today the church is not kept in its proper context and is not esteemed. A very sad state.

 

[Old Union Brother]

It's not me fighting you on this one brother...a true church of Christ is one that is a community of believers all working together to glorify the Lord & with the ultimate goal to be sanctified. Too often today the church is not kept in its proper context and is not esteemed. A very sad state.

Amen! And I realize you are not fighting me on this. We are told to keep ourselves unspotted from the world. To much of what has been said spots us and the church. And for that very reason I am withdrawing from this thread.

 

[OldRegular]

The church had a choice to do it the Biblical way. They ran at him with a "delegation" which I do not see at all as the Biblical first step.




John was pulled over for speeding and Mrs. Jones saw him. He brought dishonor to the church and thus he must stand before the entire church and make amends.



Yes, the man was a drunkard and a railer. Who was the individual who went to him first?





Since they didn't follow Matthew 18 properly, they absolutely did.

You take ever opportunity to distort anything that Old Union Brother or I say. That being true all I can say is that you are deliberately being contentious. I would expect such from Zaac but not from you. Frankly, it is very sad!

 

[annsni]

You take ever opportunity to distort anything that Old Union Brother or I say. That being true all I can say is that you are deliberately being contentious. I would expect such from Zaac but not from you. Frankly, it is very sad!

Bottom line, we use Matthew 18 for issues of church discipline. We also use Galatians 6:1 which says "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted."

 

[OldRegular]

Bottom line, we use Matthew 18 for issues of church discipline. We also use Galatians 6:1 which says "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted."

I have no idea what you use. i simply saw your response to the post by PJ!

 

[annsni]

I have no idea what you use. i simply saw your response to the post by PJ!

What post? I haven't seen PJ post in any of these threads.

 

[convicted1]

What are the steps in Matthew 18? We have two different views here:

1 - Bring a "delegation" to the offender and demand that they stand before the church to "make amends".

2 - Go as an individual to speak to the person and see if he will listen to you. If he does not listen to you then you go to him with one or two others. If then he does not listen to you, THEN you go to the church.

OR uses step 1. The Bible uses step 2.

Sissy, if I understand you correctly, you have a rather large church, and you are in a pretty big size town. So policing a bigger church maybe be a lot harder than a rural ORB church. My home church has 21 members, Brother Jeff's has around 100, or so, so policing it isn't as complicated, I guess.


TBS, the first step is to go to the offender alone. Now, most ORB churches are small(in regards to other bigger populated churches), and are in rural areas. News travels fast in these places....or let's just call a spade a spade....and rightfuly call it gossip. In the situation Brother OldRegular gave you, what that offender did, was already "widespread news", so someone going to them, and them alone, was already past and gone. The next step is to take one or two with you, and if they won't hear him, bring them before the church....but the whole church had already known about, seeing they were in the hospital. So, since they weren't able to go before the church due to their injuries running from the law, mind you, the church went to them, and gave them their chance, and they wouldn't go along with what they recommended, and excommunication was the only viable option left.

Listen, reconciliation should always be the first thing any local church should try to obtain. TBS, when someone, who was a professing christian, that bore corrupt fruit, who was offered the time to explain themselves before the church, and turns that opportunity down, has excluded themselves, imo.

If an allegation was thrown my way, I would call my Moderator PRONTO, and request a special meeting, and tell them what was said about me. I wouldn't want anything I did to bring reproach upon Little Martha, and especially the name of Jesus Christ.


When someone's shacked up with another, and they are supposed to be a christian, and they are "mum" about it, something's amiss.

 

[Zaac]

EVERY sin is a sin against God - but why must this man be dragged to the front of the sanctuary to make "amends"? Will that help him to understand what he has done and have someone counsel him and disciple him to be able to overcome this sin in his life?

Isn't being brought before the church part of the Biblical disciplining process whereby the person did not receive the counsel of one at first, then two, and then before the church?

We do not embrace sin or allow it to continue but we also don't drag every sin in front of the church unless it was a sin done directly to the church (stealing money would be one thing). But in this case, I believe what would be more productive would be to meet with him individually and find out what happened. What is the initial cause of this? Was it the alcohol that caused him to go crazy and break the law then escape from jail? Why the alcohol? Why does he feel the need to get drunk? There is a deeper thing going on than what has happened here and that needs to be addressed or else you will have either a man who begins to hide his sin better or a man who walks away from his faith.

Honestly, it is none of the "church's" business (I'm meaning the congregation, not the church as the organization). But absolutely the pastor and/or elders should be addressing this with the gentleman and deal with what is going on with the goal of restoring him to full fellowship with God. I just don't see how throwing the man on stage will do the same thing.

If it is done in the correct Biblical order after the one on one and two, then BIBLICALLY he is to be brought before the church with the intent that he recognize the need for repentance.

If the church didn't go throught the process, then they are wrong.

 

[annsni]

Sissy, if I understand you correctly, you have a rather large church, and you are in a pretty big size town. So policing a bigger church maybe be a lot harder than a rural ORB church. My home church has 21 members, Brother Jeff's has around 100, or so, so policing it isn't as complicated, I guess.


TBS, the first step is to go to the offender alone. Now, most ORB churches are small(in regards to other bigger populated churches), and are in rural areas. News travels fast in these places....or let's just call a spade a spade....and rightfuly call it gossip. In the situation Brother OldRegular gave you, what that offender did, was already "widespread news", so someone going to them, and them alone, was already past and gone. The next step is to take one or two with you, and if they won't hear him, bring them before the church....but the whole church had already known about, seeing they were in the hospital. So, since they weren't able to go before the church due to their injuries running from the law, mind you, the church went to them, and gave them their chance, and they wouldn't go along with what they recommended, and excommunication was the only viable option left.

So gossip overrides the Scriptures? So what if there is a lot of gossip and news has spread. That means nothing. A man lies to his wife and your whole town knows it. Does he have to stand before the whole town to confess - or does he have to confess to his wife?

You say that because everyone knew, the time of one going to him is gone. Why is that? I don't see that in Scripture at all.

Listen, reconciliation should always be the first thing any local church should try to obtain. TBS, when someone, who was a professing christian, that bore corrupt fruit, who was offered the time to explain themselves before the church, and turns that opportunity down, has excluded themselves, imo.

I would disagree with "explaining themselves before the church" as well because that is not Biblical.

If an allegation was thrown my way, I would call my Moderator PRONTO, and request a special meeting, and tell them what was said about me. I wouldn't want anything I did to bring reproach upon Little Martha, and especially the name of Jesus Christ.

I would hope the name of Jesus would be more important than Little Martha.

When someone's shacked up with another, and they are supposed to be a christian, and they are "mum" about it, something's amiss.

I agree. But in the case that we had, the man was not a believer nor was his girlfriend.

 

[annsni]

Isn't being brought before the church part of the Biblical disciplining process whereby the person did not receive the counsel of one at first, then two, and then before the church?



If it is done in the correct Biblical order after the one on one and two, then BIBLICALLY he is to be brought before the church with the intent that he recognize the need for repentance.

If the church didn't go throught the process, then they are wrong.

Yep - and apparently in the case of what OR has said, the church went with a delegation and demanded that the man stand before the church to "make amends". I do not see that as going through ANY process and thus is wrong.

 

[Zaac]

Yep - and apparently in the case of what OR has said, the church went with a delegation and demanded that the man stand before the church to "make amends". I do not see that as going through ANY process and thus is wrong.

If that is true, then the church is out of order and shouldn't very well expect to bring someone else into God's order if they are not operating in God's order.

And make amends for what? Did he wrong an individual in the church? This sounds kinda crazy. If he sinned against God, being brought before the Church is supposed to be about giving him the opportunity to repent and make amends with God where he wouldn't do so before.

But this seems to be the type of behavior you get from the church when certain sins and individuals are stigmatized.

 

[annsni]

If that is true, then the church is out of order and shouldn't very well expect to bring someone else into God's order if they are not operating in God's order.

And make amends for what? Did he wrong an individual in the church? This sounds kinda crazy. If he sinned against God, being brought before the Church is supposed to be about giving him the opportunity to repent and make amends with God where he wouldn't do so before.

But this seems to be the type of behavior you get from the church when certain sins and individuals are stigmatized.

I agree. We've dealt with offenses before at church and rarely does it need to be brought before the church. If it is a matter of gossip that has made it known to everyone a simple word spoke from the pulpit from the pastor with instruction on church discipline would suffice. "I know you have heard about a certain individual who attends this church and I wanted to let you all know that gossip is not the proper way to deal with this. Your church leaders are addressing the issue with the individual and if it needs to come before the church, that will happen. Until that happens, please stop spreading information that has nothing to do with you."

 

[OldRegular]

In post #10 of the thread "unmarried Couples" I posted the following:

You folks are unique in more ways than one, and I for one am thankful to God you are!

Years ago I saw a young man excluded from the Church where my Dad was a member. This young man had gotten drunk, broke some law, put in jail, broke out of jail, and in running from the law fell over a cliff and broke his leg. When he got out of the hospital a delegation was sent to ask him to appear before the Church and make amends. He refused to do so and was excluded. In my opinion he left the Church no choice!

On the particular day the above occurred I was visiting the Church. I presented in the above post my understanding of the events that resulted in the exclusion of a member. Notice I did not mention the passage from Matthew dealing with church discipline. I did not mention the passage from 1 Corinthians dealing with Church discipline. I indicated above that I thought the action of the Church was appropriate. I still do about 40 years later.

It is very sad that there has been so much distortion and lies propagated about this simple story; I believe more than I recall about any other post on this Forum. Sadly one of the people whom I had come to respect over the years is the worst offender. In her latest remarks about me and the above incident [post #18 in response to convicted1] she tells the board the following:

What are the steps in Matthew 18? We have two different views here:

1 - Bring a "delegation" to the offender and demand that they stand before the church to "make amends".

2 - Go as an individual to speak to the person and see if he will listen to you. If he does not listen to you then you go to him with one or two others. If then he does not listen to you, THEN you go to the church.

OR uses step 1. The Bible uses step 2.

Ann knows that is false. The question I have is why all the uproar by Ann. It is a mystery at least to me and perhaps to her.

 

[OldRegular]

What post? I haven't seen PJ post in any of these threads.

You might look at post #13 and 14 of the thread "unmarried couples"!

 

[annsni]

You might look at post #13 and 14 of the thread "unmarried couples"!

OH! You're talking about preachinjesus - because there is a member here "PJ" and I thought you meant her!

 

[annsni]

I have no idea what you use. i simply saw your response to the post by PJ!

You have no idea what I use because of this post?

Amen!! It's hard because we can take the complete legalistic route - and most likely not have hearts and lives changed. But we will be standing on the truth, darn it!! Or we can be like Jesus, show grace, speak the truth in love and challenge people to get their lives to change by the power of the Gospel.