Church discipline?

[Old Union Brother]

I am starting this thread to keep from derailing another one. In the other thread (http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=84311) Old Regular stated a situation and Annsi implied that it was a Matthew 18 situation.

There is a difference between a sin against God and a trespass against a brother or sister. This seems to be a major problem in the so called modern church. Most churches today do not want to make a distinction between the two for fear of making some one mad. God is the only one that can forgive sin, the offended individual or the local church is the one that can forgive trespasses using Mathew 18.

 

[annsni]

But this man did not offend the church so why should he make amends to them? According to dictionary.com, "amends" means "reparation or compensation for a loss, damage, or injury of any kind; recompense."

What damage, loss or injury did the church receive from this?

 

[Monster]

I am starting this thread to keep from derailing another one. In the other thread (http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=84311) Old Regular stated a situation and Annsi implied that it was a Matthew 18 situation.

There is a difference between a sin against God and a trespass against a brother or sister. This seems to be a major problem in the so called modern church. Most churches today do not want to make a distinction between the two for fear of making some one mad. God is the only one that can forgive sin, the offended individual or the local church is the one that can forgive trespasses using Mathew 18.

Excellent points, 100% agreement.

The problem for folks (me included, depending upon the issue) is that accepting what you've stated, and what I believe the Bible teaches, is that it skewers some of our favorite sacred cows.

Another way to state it; accepting what you've illuminated eliminates so much of those comfortable "gray" areas we like to define most of our lives with.

I'm thinking a lot about Mathew 7-13&14 and how it can apply to so much of life's more interesting "dilemmas".

 

[Old Union Brother]

But this man did not offend the church so why should he make amends to them? According to dictionary.com, "amends" means "reparation or compensation for a loss, damage, or injury of any kind; recompense."

What damage, loss or injury did the church receive from this?

Your reply is laughable! Typical response of the modern day "church"

Public drunkeness, breaking the law of the land,getting placed in jail, and breaking out of jail, how could this not be an offense against God and the church? It is obvious by his actions /fruits that he had never repented and the church had to withdraw form him so that he could repent and not give him a false hope of salvation by letting him stay in fellowship

 

[annsni]

Your reply is laughable! Typical response of the modern day "church"

Public drunkeness, breaking the law of the land,getting placed in jail, and breaking out of jail, how could this not be an offense against God and the church? It is obvious by his actions /fruits that he had never repented and the church had to withdraw form him so that he could repent and not give him a false hope of salvation by letting him stay in fellowship

EVERY sin is a sin against God - but why must this man be dragged to the front of the sanctuary to make "amends"? Will that help him to understand what he has done and have someone counsel him and disciple him to be able to overcome this sin in his life?

We do not embrace sin or allow it to continue but we also don't drag every sin in front of the church unless it was a sin done directly to the church (stealing money would be one thing). But in this case, I believe what would be more productive would be to meet with him individually and find out what happened. What is the initial cause of this? Was it the alcohol that caused him to go crazy and break the law then escape from jail? Why the alcohol? Why does he feel the need to get drunk? There is a deeper thing going on than what has happened here and that needs to be addressed or else you will have either a man who begins to hide his sin better or a man who walks away from his faith.

Honestly, it is none of the "church's" business (I'm meaning the congregation, not the church as the organization). But absolutely the pastor and/or elders should be addressing this with the gentleman and deal with what is going on with the goal of restoring him to full fellowship with God. I just don't see how throwing the man on stage will do the same thing.

 

[salzer mtn]

When Ananias and Sapphira conspired together to lie and keep back part of the money of the land, there was no counseling necessary, They fell dead and were carried out and burried. Did anything good come out of this? Yes, great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. Ann I guess the early church would have put you out of business. LOL

 

[Old Union Brother]

The church cannot restore fellowship with God--only God can do that. Like it or not public crime is already in the public eye and there is no use covering it up. It is already an open offence to the church. Yes it is good to receive counseling for addictions. However we differ in the belief that it is ok for offenders to stay in fellowship with the church. Such liberal mindedness which tries to hide sin does nothing to strengthen the church it just weakens it. It seems that most people believe that the church is a saving machine rather than a home for the saved.

I know that you probably don't understand this but it was more loving to confront this man over his sin and exclude him from fellowship so that he could repent than patting him on the back and telling him all is ok.

 

[Old Union Brother]

When Ananias and Sapphira conspired together to lie and keep back part of the money of the land, there was no counseling necessary, They fell dead and were carried out and burried. Did anything good come out of this? Yes, great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. Ann I guess the early church would have put you out of business. LOL

I totally agree excellent reply!

 

[OldRegular]

EVERY sin is a sin against God - but why must this man be dragged to the front of the sanctuary to make "amends"? Will that help him to understand what he has done and have someone counsel him and disciple him to be able to overcome this sin in his life?

We do not embrace sin or allow it to continue but we also don't drag every sin in front of the church unless it was a sin done directly to the church (stealing money would be one thing). But in this case, I believe what would be more productive would be to meet with him individually and find out what happened. What is the initial cause of this? Was it the alcohol that caused him to go crazy and break the law then escape from jail? Why the alcohol? Why does he feel the need to get drunk? There is a deeper thing going on than what has happened here and that needs to be addressed or else you will have either a man who begins to hide his sin better or a man who walks away from his faith.

Honestly, it is none of the "church's" business (I'm meaning the congregation, not the church as the organization). But absolutely the pastor and/or elders should be addressing this with the gentleman and deal with what is going on with the goal of restoring him to full fellowship with God. I just don't see how throwing the man on stage will do the same thing.

The above post was addressed on another thread with essentially the same message.

Matthew 18:15-17
15. Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

The instructions from Matthew would require some modification since the behavior of the young man was public knowledge and in a community of the size where it occurred would certainly be seen as discrediting the Church to which he belonged. Seems to me the Church followed the instructions of Jesus Christ as appropriate. Can't beat that!

 

[annsni]

When Ananias and Sapphira conspired together to lie and keep back part of the money of the land, there was no counseling necessary, They fell dead and were carried out and burried. Did anything good come out of this? Yes, great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. Ann I guess the early church would have put you out of business. LOL

Then let God strike them dead. It wasn't the church who did so, did they?

Again, seek to restore. You cannot restore if the sin has not been dealt with.

How many restorations have you seen? I've seen many and my husband and I are counseling two situations right now with a possible third. None of these things have to do with the church's attention but it definitely has to do with civil sin. The issues are deeper than the civil sin and we hope to not only have these people forsaking their sin (which they are) but to also deal with other issues that gave them a lead to sin as they did. Much of it has come from being sexually abused as children and thus messing up the truth of what God has done for them. So we work with them. And the cases we've dealt with already have resulted in amazing testimonies for God. I wish I was free to tell you more about it but I can't at this point.

 

[OldRegular]

But this man did not offend the church so why should he make amends to them? According to dictionary.com, "amends" means "reparation or compensation for a loss, damage, or injury of any kind; recompense."

What damage, loss or injury did the church receive from this?

What the man did was obviously public knowledge. Obviously what he did was an offense against God and the Church.

A good example of bringing disgrace to the Church was the Billy boy Clinton abuse of a teen age intern. Anyone able to read or hear knew what he had done. I suspect his local Church in Arkansas behaved more like the Church at Corinth, sort of took pride in his actions. Actually he should have been excluded period. Of course it would have had no impact on Billy boy he could have joined any church of his choice except perhaps a RCC..

Now days if one is excluded from a SBC he can join any other SBC by statement. This could not happen in an Old Regular Baptist Church and I suspect in a Primitive Baptist Church.

 

[annsni]

What the man did was obviously public knowledge. Obviously what he did was an offense against God and the Church.

It was an offense to God but I don't see where it was an offense to the church congregation.

A good example of bringing disgrace to the Church was the Billy boy Clinton abuse of a teen age intern. Anyone able to read or hear knew what he had done. I suspect his local Church in Arkansas behaved more like the Church at Corinth, sort of took pride in his actions.

Do you have proof that they took pride in his actions?

Actually he should have been excluded period. Of course it would have had no impact on Billy boy he could have joined any church of his choice except perhaps a RCC..

Now days if one is excluded from a SBC he can join any other SBC by statement. This could not happen in an Old Regular Baptist Church and I suspect in a Primitive Baptist Church.

So you know every sin of your congregation and make sure that every sin has been "amended" before they come into the church?

Let me ask you this: How many cases of sin have you dealt with and how many cases of restoration have you dealt with? I'm not talking "brushing under the rug" restoration (that is not restoration) but true, life changing restoration.

I've been a part of more than I can even count - and in just a short time. God's actually been dropping a few into our lap in the past week and MAN, it's so amazing to see what God does when restoration is dealt with properly. Not a dunk seat in front of the congregation but a true discipleship and life change. It's really actually humbling!

 

[Old Union Brother]

It was an offense to God but I don't see where it was an offense to the church congregation.

Then you must be blind. If a church member commits public crime it is an offence to the church and brings a reproach on the church.

So you know every sin of your congregation and make sure that every sin has been "amended" before they come into the church?

Nope never said we did. if they tell us that they have repented and have an experience of grace we will take them in. We are allowed to judge them that are within

it is obvious tht you have never read:

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[OldRegular]

It was an offense to God but I don't see where it was an offense to the church congregation.

If a teacher in your congregation was arrested for abusing a child would that have a negative affect on your Church? Or suppose it were a homosexual teacher caught abusing a child?

Do you have proof that they took pride in his actions?

Not at all but they sure took no action.

So you know every sin of your congregation and make sure that every sin has been "amended" before they come into the church?

I only know of one case that was brought to the church and it was handled in a juvenile manner. Southern Baptist Churches are not noted for church discipline!

Let me ask you this: How many cases of sin have you dealt with and how many cases of restoration have you dealt with?

I deal with sin on a daily basis and God is always gracious to forgive me but then that is the promise of Scripture.

I'm not talking "brushing under the rug" restoration (that is not restoration) but true, life changing restoration.

Actually I know of one case that was brushed under the rug and a mans life ruined because of it. I will not discuss it here but it is a perfect example of how many Southern Baptist Churches handle sin, particularly when a staff member is involved.

I've been a part of more than I can even count - and in just a short time. God's actually been dropping a few into our lap in the past week and MAN, it's so amazing to see what God does when restoration is dealt with properly. Not a dunk seat in front of the congregation but a true discipleship and life change. It's really actually humbling!

It seems to me that you are making actually zero effort to understand the case that I presented. It is the same asinine approach that Zaac insisted was proper in the case of homosexuals. Frankly I am surprised since I recall you disagreed with Zaac in dealing with that sin. At least he is consistent.

 

[convicted1]

But this man did not offend the church so why should he make amends to them? According to dictionary.com, "amends" means "reparation or compensation for a loss, damage, or injury of any kind; recompense."

What damage, loss or injury did the church receive from this?

Sissy, here's something you need to think about. I am a member of my home church, Little Martha, and it's in the Indian Bottom ORB assoc. Now, first and foremost, I am a member of the body of Christ, and secondly, a member of Little Martha. Why did I say it that way? I am a representative of BOTH. Wherever I go, I am a representative of BOTH the body of Christ, and Little Martha. If I go out and lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, get cast into prison, etc., I am bringing reproach on BOTH.


We have to be careful who we take in, and who we keep as members. I know someone who you couldn't choke the truth out of if your life depended upon it. Every church they went to, they just about killed it. Would you want someone like that in your church? When someone is showing unspiritual fruit, and they will not repent of it, after dealing with it according to Matthew 18, the only recourse it to exclude them.

 

[annsni]

Then you must be blind. If a church member commits public crime it is an offence to the church and brings a reproach on the church.

It is an offense to the congregation? Or is it something that needs to be dealt with between the leadership and the individual? I believe this idea of dragging the sinner in front of the congregation as the first step is unbiblical and unhealthy.

Nope never said we did. if they tell us that they have repented and have an experience of grace we will take them in. We are allowed to judge them that are within

So, they must stand before the entire congregation if they got a speeding ticket? Because that is an offense to the whole church as well.

it is obvious tht you have never read:

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

I have read it - in context, which you seem to be having a problem with. This is in the context of a man sleeping with his stepmother and is flaunting it in the church and the church is embracing it. I do believe that this is quite different. Now, if this man came to your church drunk and started shooting up the place, I would agree with you.

 

[annsni]

If a teacher in your congregation was arrested for abusing a child would that have a negative affect on your Church? Or suppose it were a homosexual teacher caught abusing a child?

That would be an offense within the church and the police would be called and he would be taken from the church in handcuffs. We would counsel the victim and the offender would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. It would be quite a long time before the man would be allowed to darken our doorstep and that would only be after extensive counseling, after he pays his debt to society and he has dealt with the offense against the person that he offended. Then he would be allowed back into the church - with a shadow.

Not at all but they sure took no action.

Then how do you know that there is pride?

I only know of one case that was brought to the church and it was handled in a juvenile manner. Southern Baptist Churches are not noted for church discipline!

Well, I'm not SB so I don't know. But I do know of MANY churches that practice church discipline and while it's not a fun thing, it is something that needs to be addressed.

I deal with sin on a daily basis and God is always gracious to forgive me but then that is the promise of Scripture.

That is wonderful but I'm not speaking of you but your congregation.

Actually I know of one case that was brushed under the rug and a mans life ruined because of it. I will not discuss it here but it is a perfect example of how many Southern Baptist Churches handle sin, particularly when a staff member is involved.

That is sinful and unbiblical. In our church, it is dealt with biblically and efficiently. Often it results in restoration but at times it has meant disfellowship. But we are open to restoration when and if the person returns and works through the steps to restoration.

It seems to me that you are making actually zero effort to understand the case that I presented. It is the same asinine approach that Zaac insisted was proper in the case of homosexuals. Frankly I am surprised since I recall you disagreed with Zaac in dealing with that sin. At least he is consistent.

What am I not being consistent on? Sin is sin is sin and it is to be dealt with. We use the Matthew 18 approach. You use the Matthew 18:17b approach but there is more than "tell it to the church" before that portion of Scripture.

 

[annsni]

Sissy, here's something you need to think about. I am a member of my home church, Little Martha, and it's in the Indian Bottom ORB assoc. Now, first and foremost, I am a member of the body of Christ, and secondly, a member of Little Martha. Why did I say it that way? I am a representative of BOTH. Wherever I go, I am a representative of BOTH the body of Christ, and Little Martha. If I go out and lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, get cast into prison, etc., I am bringing reproach on BOTH.


We have to be careful who we take in, and who we keep as members. I know someone who you couldn't choke the truth out of if your life depended upon it. Every church they went to, they just about killed it. Would you want someone like that in your church? When someone is showing unspiritual fruit, and they will not repent of it, after dealing with it according to Matthew 18, the only recourse it to exclude them.

What are the steps in Matthew 18? We have two different views here:

1 - Bring a "delegation" to the offender and demand that they stand before the church to "make amends".

2 - Go as an individual to speak to the person and see if he will listen to you. If he does not listen to you then you go to him with one or two others. If then he does not listen to you, THEN you go to the church.

OR uses step 1. The Bible uses step 2.

 

[OldRegular]

I believe this idea of dragging the sinner in front of the congregation as the first step is unbiblical and unhealthy.

You have judged everyone guilty except the guilty party. No one was dragged in front of the congregation. A delegation was sent to the man. He refused to come before the church. He was excluded since he left the church no choice!

So, they must stand before the entire congregation if they got a speeding ticket? Because that is an offense to the whole church as well.

You are getting a little silly trying to make your point whatever it is!

 

[Old Union Brother]

I have read it - in context, which you seem to be having a problem with. This is in the context of a man sleeping with his stepmother and is flaunting it in the church and the church is embracing it. I do believe that this is quite different. Now, if this man came to your church drunk and started shooting up the place, I would agree with you.

You are the one taking it out of context. The man was obviously a drunkard and a railer. He fit two of the things Paul mentioned in:

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

The church had no choice!!