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Featured Religious beliefs of the founding fathers

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Feb 8, 2013.

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  1. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    I hate to break it to you, but there will be infant baptizers in heaven as well as hell, just like Baptists.
     
  2. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    :thumbsup::thumbsup: There is much truth to this. What I find so fascinating personally is the extreme ethno-centrism of those of us who speak of "Church" history who essentially only mean our Western Traditions....I can imagine all of the myriad of Christians East of Germany thinking to themselves "What are we, chopped liver?".
    Reality is, as many if not more people who are nominally considered "Christians" have essentially NEVER adhered to so many of the sacred cows we have in our Western Tradition.
    Specifically: Total Inability, Original Guilt, Penal Substitution etc...<-----and these are certainly not Universal even in the Western Tradition
    I am not saying whether or not I agree, I am just saying we are taking an EXTREMELY limited view of "Church History". I am always floored by appeals to THE "Historic Faith", as though there is such a thing...
    I couldn't help but laugh till my side hurt when Thomas H...posted the oldest Baptist Confession from the author of the same name.

    I love History passionately, in all of it's forms...but to appeal to one's personally preferred subset of Theologians from history to attempt to prove your Theology correct is pointless.
    Debates around here often go something like this:
    "I'll see your John Scotus and raise you one Gottschalk"
    "I'll see your Gottschalk and raise you one Thomas Aquinas"

    I just don't know if a Jonathan Edwards beats a John Wesley or if a Spurgeon trumps a Gil
    I DO know that having an Anselm gives a +1 to attack, but there's debate about whether the Augustine gives +2 to Armour Class or mana. Anyone know?
    I can only laugh at it, so I don't die a little on the inside when I see it.

    (Meant to post this on the "History Thread"...but oh well.) :tonofbricks:
     
    #22 HeirofSalvation, Feb 9, 2013
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  3. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Historical facts (statistics) most certainly are interesting and give us information and snapshots of moments in time. They do not of necessity speak of "correctness" most particularly regarding positions on philosophical ideas and truths.
     
  4. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    I am thoroughly acquainted with the history and theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church, just to let you know.

    I'm glad to have provided you some medicinal humor, but it is a fact that the first English Baptist confession was that of Thomas Helwys and followers, a General Baptist confession.
     
  5. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    If you have to have a "die" to "die", then no "dice." I'm a 10th level cleric, so bring your A-game! :laugh:
     
  6. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    Quite simply, because of the autonomy of the local church. If I find a church that I believe is faithful to scriptures and the Gospel, then it matters little what denomination it is in, unless it is promoting rank haresy...there are benifits in cooperation in missions, and theological education.
     
  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Thomas, you ignored about 75 percent of my argument and went off on some unrelated tangent.

    I am familiar with the Oxford movement in the 1800's but what that has to do with the theology of the episcopalean founders of this nation is beyond me.

    Furthermore, the Church of England sought to embrace primarily Catholic liturgy but primarily Protestant theology.

    That the Puritans were almost exclusively Calvinists is beyond argument. That they represented the vast majority of Anglicanism in the colonies up until about 1700 is without question.

    That the Great awakening that preimpted the Revolutionary War further "calvinized" the colonies even more than they already were is clear. Particular Baptists, for example, as a result, became known simply as Regular Baptists.

    Finally, I've not said anything blatantly inaccurate about the history of Anglicanism so this smug comment about "you ought to study anglicanist history" mess, aside from being pompous and insulting, is uncalled for.
     
  8. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Who is doing that?

    I am pointing out that when some doofas calls Calvinism "heresy" or insane that he insults the majority of the founders of this nation.
     
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    In regards to the list in the op, over a third to half were also involved in the cult of freemasonry while the rest formed the constitution using this cult as the backdrop including the architecture of government facilities. If the op is intended to reflect our founding fathers held to biblical truth and not false doctrine, might not be the best argument and best place to start. Just saying.
     
  10. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    I know.... I appreciated your post. I found it humorous because you single-handedly instantly destroyed a favourite Zeitgeist of some people on this board...
    I had also seen the Helwys confession before, as I am a regular denizen of EA.org which you linked to.

    I LIKED your post....that was an "atta-boy" Thomas...just accept it and don't get defensive.
     
    #30 HeirofSalvation, Feb 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2013
  11. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    If Calvinism is heresy, it is heresy regardless of who believed it.
     
  12. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    I am not saying anyone here is doing that...It was a general statement (I thought we were on the "history" thread LOL... I essentially agree for the most part with your OP.
     
  13. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    A majority of a group holding a particular theology is not proof of that that particular theology is either correct or incorrect. Certainly a majority of the founding fathers from Virginia on south believed in the correctness of slavery ... and perhaps a majority of the founding fathers from all the states may have believe this. That did not make slavery correct. I am sure a majority of that majority, if not all of them would have defended slavery theologically.

    Indeed a number of our presidents owned slaves. They were:

    I show this only to show that a majority may be wrong.
     
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Who has ever purported that the majority is always right?

    If no one, what is the point of this post?
     
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    That's just fine. So long as you are consistent and declare that this nation of ours was founded mostly by a bunch of heretics.
     
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Many of us think that the fact that they were Masons is a non-issue.
     
  17. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    And who cares if they owned slaves?

    It was accepted in both the Old and New Testaments as long as they were treated well.
     
  18. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I have been very careful not to call Calvinists heretics. There is some truth to Calvinism, just as there is some truth to Arminianism. I believe the true gospel lies BETWEEN these extremes. But I believe both are error.

    I believe that the majority of our founding fathers were Calvinists, and I believe that had a tremendous influence on our country for both good and bad. I believe that personal responsibility/ hard work/the right to personal property are good products of Christianity and even Calvinism, however, doctrines like Manifest Destiny were evil, which resulted in the slaughter of the American Indians.

    But the fact that most of our founding fathers may have been Calvinists does not prove Calvinism correct whatsoever, as does neither church history. This is something you and several other Calvinists here cannot seem to grasp.
     
  19. Baptist4life

    Baptist4life Well-Known Member
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    Well, I believe since YOU posted the OP claiming the founding fathers were mostly all Calvinists, YOU think the "majority is always right"! Otherwise, what was YOUR point of the OP?
     
    #39 Baptist4life, Feb 9, 2013
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  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    That's laughable considering it is a cult from the pits of hell. How you can call holding such a cult a "non issue" while also embracing Calvinism is quite telling for the mindset needed to embrace such a soteriology.

    Maybe you need to study your history some ;)

    My entire point was this group you are using as your reference were ignorant at best, pagans at worst. Regardless of Calvinist, Arminian, molinist, etc, to hold to a cult alongside of a "historical" position shows lack of spiritual discernment, knowledge and wisdom. Your entire premesis in your op is what the true non issue is as it proves nothing except your ignorance on American history. Oh the irony :)

    At this point its probably best to take your own advice, stop pounding on the pulpit, and "shut up" as you so gracefully put it in one of the many arrogant threads you started blasting everyone. Its important to remember how many fingers point back at you when you point yours.
     
    #40 webdog, Feb 9, 2013
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