Featured John MacArthur is addressing Catholic heresies

So you don't sin anymore? Wow!

Not a Catholic myself, and I don't agree with the word 'punishment' in the definition, but my understanding of it is that, to the extent to which we are not fully transformed into the image of Christ per Rom 12:1-2 when we die, it is necessary for this process therefore to be completed after our deaths - where we are made perfect and become totally Christ-like, sin no more and are able to say that we are "holy, just as God is holy". That makes perfect sense to me: I know that although my sins are forgiven and I am justified in Christ and thus an inheritor of eternal life in Him, nevertheless my 'flesh' (or concupiscence) remains a powerful force in my life, I sin daily, and I am not in actuality 'Christ-like' (if you met me in the street you wouldn't (unfortunately) say "hey, this guy's just like Jesus"); hence I am very much a work-in-progress, still in the process of spiritual formation; if I fell under a truck today, I know I am saved, but I am not yet ready to be united with God (for instance, I suspect if I did get hit by a truck, then my last words would not be suitable to print on this board!). If I am blessed, the Holy Spirit will complete this good work before I pop my clogs; but if not, I am sure He will do so after my death. I'm OK with calling this 'after death' perfecting 'purgatory'.

 

interesting !

BALTIMORE CATECHISM #3
LESSON 37 - ON THE LAST JUDGMENT & RESURRECTION, HELL PURGATORY & HEAVEN



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Q. 1371. When will Christ judge us?

A. Christ will judge us immediately after our death, and on the last day.

Q. 1372. What is the judgment called which we have to undergo immediately after death?

A. The judgment we have to undergo immediately after death is called the Particular Judgment.

Q. 1373. Where will the particular judgment be held?

A. The particular judgment will be held in the place where each person dies, and the soul will go immediately to its reward or punishment.

Q. 1374. What is the judgment called which all men have to undergo on the last day?

A. The judgment which all men have to undergo on the last day is called the General Judgment.

Q. 1375. Will the sentence given at the particular judgment be changed at the general judgment?

A. The sentence given at the particular judgment will not be changed at the general judgment, but it will be repeated and made public to all.

Q. 1376. Why does Christ judge men immediately after death?

A. Christ judges men immediately after death to reward or punish them according to their deeds.

Q. 1377. How may we daily prepare for our judgment?

A. We may daily prepare for our judgment by a good examination of conscience, in which we will discover our sins and learn to fear the punishment they deserve.

Q. 1378. What are the rewards or punishments appointed for men's souls after the Particular Judgment?

A. The rewards or punishments appointed for men's souls after the Particular Judgment are Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell.

Q. 1379. What is Hell?

A. Hell is a state to which the wicked are condemned, and in which they are deprived of the sight of God for all eternity, and are in dreadful torments.

Q. 1380. Will the damned suffer in both mind and body?

A. The damned will suffer in both mind and body, because both mind and body had a share in their sins. The mind suffers the "pain of loss" in which it is tortured by the thought of having lost God forever, and the body suffers the "pain of sense" by which it is tortured in all its members and senses.

Q. 1381. What is Purgatory?

A. Purgatory is the state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.

Q. 1382. Why is this state called Purgatory?

A. This state is called Purgatory because in it the souls are purged or purified from all their stains; and it is not, therefore, a permanent or lasting state for the soul.

Q. 1383. Are the souls in Purgatory sure of their salvation?

A. The souls in Purgatory are sure of their salvation, and they will enter heaven as soon as they are completely purified and made worthy to enjoy that presence of God which is called the Beatific Vision.

Q. 1384. Do we know what souls are in Purgatory, and how long they have to remain there?

A. We do not know what souls are in Purgatory nor how long they have to remain there; hence we continue to pray for all persons who have died apparently in the true faith and free from mortal sin. They are called the faithful departed.

Q. 1385. Can the faithful on earth help the souls in Purgatory?

A. The faithful on earth can help the souls in Purgatory by their prayers, fasts, alms, deeds; by indulgences, and by having Masses said for them.

Q. 1386. Since God loves the souls in Purgatory, why does He punish them?

A. Though God loves the souls in Purgatory, He punishes them because His holiness requires that nothing defiled may enter heaven and His justice requires that everyone be punished or rewarded according to what he deserves.

Q. 1387. If every one is judged immediately after death, what need is there of a general judgment?

A. There is need of a general judgment, though every one is judged immediately after death, that the providence of God, which, on earth, often permits the good to suffer and the wicked to prosper, may in the end appear just before all men.

Q. 1388. What is meant by "the Providence of God"?

A. By "the Providence of God" is meant the manner in which He preserves, provides for, rules and governs the world and directs all things by His infinite Will.

Q. 1389. Are there other reasons for the general judgment?

A. There are other reasons for the general judgment, and especially that Christ Our Lord may receive from the whole world the honor denied Him at His first coming, and that all may be forced to acknowledge Him their God and Redeemer.

Q. 1390. Will our bodies share in the reward or punishment of our souls?

A. Our bodies will share in the reward or punishment of our souls, because through the resurrection they will again be united to them.

Q. 1391. When will the general resurrection or rising of all the dead take place?

A. The general resurrection or rising of all the dead will take place at the general judgment, when the same bodies in which we lived on earth will come forth from the grave and be united to our souls and remain united with them forever either in heaven or in hell.

Q. 1392. In what state will the bodies of the just rise?

A. The bodies of the just will rise glorious and immortal.

Q. 1393. Will the bodies of the damned also rise?

A. The bodies of the damned will also rise, but they will be condemned to eternal punishment.

Q. 1394. Why do we show respect for the bodies of the dead?

A. We show respect for the bodies of the dead because they were the dwelling-place of the soul, the medium through which it received the Sacraments, and because they were created to occupy a place in heaven.

Q. 1395. What is Heaven?

A. Heaven is the state of everlasting life in which we see God face to face, are made like unto Him in glory, and enjoy eternal happiness.

Q. 1396. In what does the happiness in heaven consist?

A. The happiness in heaven consists in seeing the beauty of God, in knowing Him as He is, and in having every desire fully satisfied.

Q. 1397. What does St. Paul say of heaven?

A. St. Paul says of heaven, "That eye hath not seen. nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man what things God hath prepared for them that love Him." (I. Cor. ii., 9.)

Q. 1398. Are the rewards in heaven and the punishments in hell the same for all who enter into either of these states?

A. The rewards of heaven and the punishments in hell are not the same for all who enter into either of these states, because each one's reward or punishment is in proportion to the amount of good or evil he has done in this world. But as heaven and hell are everlasting, each one will enjoy his reward or suffer his punishment forever.

Q. 1399. What words should we bear always in mind?

A. We should bear always in mind these words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ: "What doth it profit a man if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his own soul, or what exchange shall a man give for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then will He render to every man according to his works."

Q. 1400. Name some of the more essential religious truths we must know and believe.

A. Some of the more essential religious truths we must know and believe are:
1. That there is but one God, and He will reward the good and punish the wicked.
2. That in God there are three Divine Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and these Divine Persons are called the Blessed Trinity.
3. That Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, became man and died for our redemption.
4. That the grace of God is necessary for our salvation.
5. That the human soul is immortal.

 

Part of your problem in understanding what Catholics are saying is that often these issues were discussed during the reformed period and word connotations were a bit different than they are used to day such as the obvious example of gay. Back during the reformation gay would have the connotation of happy, bright colors, etc... Today it means same sex attraction specifically with men. Punishment is not referrencing a "paying for the sin" as in what you are thing of as in trade punishment for disolution. Rather it conveys the sense of suffering due to a disorder that you have. Its like a sick man who after surgery is suffering due the pain of healing after the removal of a tumor. He might say, I'm paying for it or being punished for it. Which is a different connotation then how you see it. Which is why these you must understand the context of how words are being used.

That is not true. How many Martyrs were punished though they were in Christ? How many people to day are punished for having faith. Many.

No sanctification no purgatory. However, I believe in sanctification. Don't you?

He forgives our sin and gives us a new nature to combat our old nature as we move on to perfection. However, If you are not moving on to perfection (growing in faith by transforming your life into the image of Chirst)by living a sanctified life then you are not meeting your mandate as a child of God and your faith is to no avail.

You are right there is no condemnation because we have been forgiven. But purgatory isn't about condemnation is about the pain one goes through on the way to perfection. Before we are given salvation by faith we are disordered. Afterwards we are given a new life. Our sins are forgiven but we need to properly order ourselves. The fact that we still have a desire to sin and occasionally do sin shows us this very fact. Which is why Paul is always encouraging the faithful of his day to grow towards perfection, to take up our cross, and to be transformed into the image of Christ Jesus. This is a process and at times its painful.

 

For one there is no hint in scripture of such. There is no idea or notion that there is a process needed to perfect us. All of scripture anticipates that on the day of redemption all of this will be behind us. Whatever that process is, is not given in scripture.

 

Then you accept there is such a process?

 

Everyone of us may honestly admit they we are "a work in progress."
But the Catholic has the gall and audacity to think that salvation is "a cooperative process" wherein they can cooperate with God "to work out their own salvation" (not understanding what that verse means). Nothing could be further from the truth. Who do they think they are? Small gods? What part of the blood of Jesus did they shed? How much of the pain of Christ did they share? The very thought of cooperation here is unfathomable. Jesus paid it all. In John 19:30 he said "It is finished." The Catholic can't say that with Christ, "We finished." It was Christ that paid the penalty, not the RCC. There is no cooperative salvation. That is blasphemy. Yet that is what they believe, and because they believe that they can drum up this fiction about purgatory.

You see, the Scripture I posted clearly states that Christ purged us from all our sins. He did that when HE (not we), was on the cross paying the penalty of our sin. He paid it all. We had no part in it.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
--He was the just paying for our sins (the sins of the unjust) that he might bring us to God, being made alive by the Spirit.

Once we believe in him; in the power of that sacrifice, the Bible says:
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
--There is no condemnation. No purgatory. No need to be purged. All sins have been completely forgiven: past, present and future, as far as salvation is concerned.

The concept of cooperative salvation is about as blasphemous as one can get. There is no such thing. Salvation is all of God.
Ephesians 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not of works, that no man should glory.
--There is not one work an individual can do to merit eternal life; not one.
Not baptism, not a single sacrament. They are all works.
Salvation is by faith in Christ, and by faith alone. Christ paid it all. It is a gift. One needs to receive that gift by faith. That is all. It cannot be worked for.

 

I would like to submit for your review 2 Cor 3:18

 

OK since you missed the context of my statement let me rephrase it.

There is no notion or idea that there is a process of perfecting us to the point that we become perfect. There is no place to go to after death that puts us through a process like this. And it is not safe or even reasonable, to take the verse you just posted and eisegetically impose such an idea. In fact it is ridiculous.

 

I disagree I believe there is scriptural support for the perfecting of the individual Christian which is why I quoted 2 Cor alluding to this process in our ontological Change. Now your contention may be: That the goal is not perfection. Which I ask on the continuum of "Christ likeness" what is the goal. 2%? 20%, 50%, 80%? Where do we stop? I would also like to point out what Jesus himself told the apostles in Matthew 5:48

And also what Peter said In 1 Peter

I believe this is where we are to go in our salvation.

First of all, I didn't "eisegetically" impose any idea. I quoted the verse which in my estimation remains clear and presented it to you for your review. Now you do have a point I don't find a direct scripture verse mentioning Purgatory. However, scripture is repleate in verse indicating a sanctification process. I believe, however, that purgatory is alluded to in scripture much like the Trinity is alluded to. Though I'm certain we will view those particular verse differently.

 

catholic Church teaches salvation is accomplished by a combination of the grace of God bestowed to us by sacraments taken, and also by good works, for thre sinner MUST get spiritual right enough first before god can call him saved... Direct opposite of Biblical teaching on salvation!

And purgatory is the 'holding ground' to allow God to purge out all unconfess/unrepentant sins in believers life, for ONLY perfect people can enter heaven...

We see us being fully justified and perfected by Christ, PERIOD, once saved by grace thru faith, catholic church sees it as we must literally get perfected first in this life to make it, good works/Gods grace together!

 

Ok well you conveniently bounce around the context of my post for the second time. The first time I thought it was a mistake. Now I know it was not. God Bless

 

Er...I don't think they do! All the Catholics I know would assert that salvation is a work of grace, whereby God works through man.

Why, then, do we continue to sin?

I think you're in danger of conflating the two concepts. Forgiven and paid for? Yes, all of it. But purged in the sense of sin being totally absent from my being and thus my being being totally transformed into the likeness of Christ? Not yet!

Hmmm...not 'alone' surely if one needs to 'do something' ('receive')....?

 

Maybe I misunderstand what you are attempting to say. Because I think I was directly responding to what you said. But I may have misunderstood what it was you were trying to say. Can you explain yourself further?

 

There is no scripture to even suggest that there is any need for further purging of sins or perfecting of the saints after we leave this world by either the return of the Lord or common death.

 

I Cor 3:13-15? (For instance.)

Not 'for sin' but rather for the actual eradication of sin.

May I pick up on the word 'glorified' which you used. What do you mean by that, and how do you think that happens? Also, what distinction are you making between flesh and spirit and how is this made? (For example, I don't need by body (my 'flesh'?) to sin; I can do that very well without moving a muscle simply by thinking naughty thoughts (my 'spirit'?); I don't think my spirit will necessarily stop thinking bad things simply by virtue of being separated from my body by death.)

 

So you are not emphasising the sanctification or the need to move on to perfection for the christian as you probably accept that is indeed what is required of us. What you are emphasising is whether this continues after our death?

I'm repeating what I think you are trying to say to make sure we are undrestanding each other. Is this correct?

If this is correct. I think that we can assertain from scriptures a "perfecting" the saints after "we leave this world". But before I get into that I want to make sure that I am properly identifying your contention.

 

Romans 5:1 states: Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
The way that it is written means "justified by faith alone." One cannot add anything to the word "faith." It sits by itself. The Catholic does not believe this. They believe they must "cooperate" with God to attain their salvation. Thus their salvation is not by the grace of God alone. It is by grace plus works. This is a denial of eternal security, a denial of justification by faith, and thus a denial that Jesus paid the full penalty of our sins. God doesn't "work through man" when it comes to salvation. God offers man salvation. Salvation is all of God. Man did not pay any role in salvation whatsoever. Not one drop of blood did man shed. Not one work of his is meritorious. He cannot do one work (not even baptism) that can earn his way to heaven. Jesus paid it all.

We sin because our old nature has not been eradicated and we don't yet have a glorified body. The resurrection has not yet taken place. We wait for the redemption of our bodies. On this earth there will always be sin both by believers and unbelievers.
He that denies that is a liar and the truth is not in him:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Forgiven, paid for, completely purged, under the blood, swept away, put behind his back, buried in the sea, forgotten, remembers no more.
How much more "purged" can they be? These are some of the expression the Lord uses in relation to our sins. They are completely forgiven and forgotten as far as our salvation is concerned.

What work do I do to receive anything? Do I demand my child to work for a gift when I give it to her? No, she receives it; no work involved. There is nothing she does (in the realm of work). Faith is not a work. One simply receives the gift of God. That is not a work; not doing something, as baptism is. In baptism one actively does the baptism, and one actively participates by being baptized. It is a work. (I don't consider infant baptism as baptism at all, so I am not referring to that ceremony).

 

Considering the context was purgatory yes.

 

justified before God solely and only by the Cross of Christ! faith accesses the Grace of God, we become reborn again, and the father calls us then his children sealed wit the Holy Spirit of promise, and NONE saved will be lost, nor need purgatory!

Jesus death covered EVERY sin that I would ever do nefore God...

RCC seems to see his blood as covering all past sins, get a clean slate, but have to make sure that we can keep it clean enough going forward to merit Gods favor!