Featured A Case for the Post-Tribulation Rapture

Either way they were spared. Unfortunately the post trib must include the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 plagues that affect everyone during this period. This contradicts the safety afforded the righteous in Jesus' examples of the righteous escaping judgement during the times of both Noah and Lot.

 

Yes!!!!

Amen Bro.Webdog...That was an excellent and articulate post and I could NOT agree with you more!:thumbs:

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

Maybe you can answer how angles got to be saints. You see that is Bosley's position and claim so he can avoid the fact scripture says very plainly that Christ will return with all His saints he will not answer because he knows he is w r o n g . How about you do you know How christ can return with all His saints when a lot of His saints are still here on Earth according to this false doctrine of post tribulation rapture.
MB

 

Amen!

YES, YES, YES....EXACTLY!!!! Well Said Brother!!:thumbsup: I for one am glad that I will be with Him on that glorious day. However, from this side of that event I would say that as blessed as that day will be it is also true that out of holy and purified eyes in our glorified bodies we will be witness to a day of CARNAGE unlike any we had ever witnessd before when our Lord Jesus Christ lays waste to the armies of the world at Armageddon in the valley of Megiddo at His second coming. It will be an unspeakably violent day to behold after going through the somewhat fearful Judgement Seat of Christ and then the beautiful Marriage Supper of the Lamb. The wonderful peace of the Millenial Reign of our Lord will be indescribably blessed.
Even so,come Lord Jesus!!!

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

One could say that of course but the post trib arguement would have a bit more punch if Moses and family were in the water getting wet during the flood instead of in the comfort of the Ark. My observation doesn't prove beyond any doubt a pre-mil rapture. Still, I do believe that my illustration is a good one and if Jesus wanted to teach us that believers would be right there in the world during the tribulation, he would have mentioned the passover scenerio because the Olivet discourse was given right before passover.

Many people think that the pre-mil rapture teaching is wildly fantastic and the sign of a simple mind but how does teaching that God will protect believers on earth while mass judgement takes, how does this explanation avoid this problem?

 

Quite right Bro. Greg but there are some even regualr posters on this board who think that our Lord has already returned. They are not even looking for the blessed hope. They do not think that today might be the day.

 

Lets assume the great tribulation has just passed and being; Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 1 Cor. 15:50-53

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1 Thes. 4:13

As to how Larry, Curly and Mo who have died are going to be in the kingdom of God? How are they going to be in the kingdom when Jesus comes to sit on the throne of his glory in the kingdom of God with us? Man they are dead.

1 Thes 4:14-17 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so (by resurrection from the dead) them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (into the kingdom of God) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede (into the kingdom of God) those who are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (In the kingdom of God)

That is how all the saints will come with him into the kingdom of God.

 

Not what the verse says at all;
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
it says when Christ returns he will bring all His saints with Him. There is no kingdom mentioned.
MB

 

It's a progression....

All of the events described in 1 Thes. 4:13-18 and referred to in 1 Thes.3:13 are events that happen PRIOR to the beginning of the Millenial reign of Christ on the earth WITH HIS SAINTS (that's us...AMEN!)if taken with consideration to the testimony of the rest of the scriptures that deal with these matters.

Bro.Greg:saint::godisgood:

 

I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Tim 4:1

The dead in Christ shall rise first then those who remain and are alive in Christ will rise with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord coming into the above kingdom and together they will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

I do think you need to put that scripture under the microscope again and observe it.The ones that were took away were the ones took away in the flood and destroyed,the ones left was the 8 on the ark-- the 2 taken away in each description are them that were taken away in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in ad 70.the ones left were the righteous--the wrath was NOT for the Righteous,but for the ungodly and unbelievers in both cases. taken away(in destruction--killed) left(remained alive):jesus::jesus:

 

also Math 24 has been fulfilled like our Lord said it would be in that Generation he spoke it unto.:jesus::jesus::jesus:

 

I don't believe so. It will not be His kingdom until it is won and it will take His presence to win it. Men are not able to conquer the beast. It is Christ who destroys the beast. This is when His kingdom will begin.
MB

 

This may not be the best time for me to respond to this because I'm medicated for a back issue, but here goes.

What I'm trying to say is this, if the church saints are in the tribulation but protected from it then the situation would be like that of the first passover. The Israelites were right there at ground zero but protected from judgement. But contrasting this with the flood, the saved were in a different environment than those being judged. This is not a minor point. It really doesn't matter if we disagree with who was left and who was removed because either way, Noah and family were not in the same environment as those judged. If they were, then you would have a great point.

To say as some do that the AD70 sacking of Jerusalem by the Roman army is the second coming Jesus is speaking about in Mat 25-25 has not a few but many problems from both a Biblical and historical perspective. If you were to list all of the signs Jesus tells us will happen in the Olivet discourse and apply them to the AD70 sacking you will find that a good portion of those things did not take place, not then or at any other time in history. The same applies to the judgements in Revelation.

I do not consider it my mission in life to convince others that my theology is correct and to point out the errors of theirs. I have come to the conclusion that the Bible is the sole authority and if we want to know God's will for our life or if we want to know how this age will conclude then we can go to the Scriptures and learn from them.

While some who rely on covenant theology to guide them as they study the Bible will not admit to believing in what is termed "replacement theology", it is impossible to adhear to covenant theology without making the claim at some point that the Church replaces Israel. Covenant theology wants to take all of Jehovah's blessings, give them to the Church and assign all the curses to the Jews. How a just God can break his promises he made to the Jews for unbelief and hand them over to the Church which has more than it's fair share of unbelief and disobedience is a question that the reformed cannot answer. It also disregards many passages of Scripture that state that The Israelites will be restored to a place of belief and fellowship.

So to proceed with this discussion you must first prove from the Bible that God made covenants of works, grace and or redemption with either man or in the case of the covenant of redemption with the Son. This is the question that I have been asking for over a year on this forum and a question that you can not answer from the Bible. The responses that I do get, generally in the form of a literary "smirk", do not make the case that such covenants exist. So to make a case for preterism, try answering the covenant question first. I wish you the best of luck.

 

I do agree with you about the righteous not being with the ungodly and unbelievers(as in the same place).
But as far as who the taken and left were--according to scripture it does matter.

Math 24-37 as the days of Noah
Math 24-38 in the days of Noah they(ungodly and unbelievers)were eating and drinking and giving in marriage(going about their everyday business)
Math 24-39 and knew not until the flood came(because they weren't heeding what was being told to them)and took THEM(ungodly and unbelievers of verse 38)all away.

and so shall the coming of the Son of man be liken also--so you see in both cases the ones taken away are taken away in the Destruction and killed--the ones left behind are the righteous--being left on the earth alive.

It does matter because people can no longer use the ones taken away as the ones called up in the rapture--That's not even scriptural trying to use these verses to say that--it doesn't mean that at all:godisgood::jesus:

 

Me thinks his appearing in 2 Tim is his presence and if I am not mistaken, right before, the dead in Christ shall rise first, is For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

That would also be, the presence of the Lord.

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, `The kingdoms of the world did become [those] of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!'

 

Bosley;
You Said;

First of all you certainly seem thin skinned. I can only state things as I see them. I see most of your claims as false. This statement is not personal. It is not meant as a reflection on you at all but on what you believe. It's what debate is about.
In this paragraph above you're trying to convince me That the word saints can be translated in different ways. This may be true but it isn't correct.
This is the word in Greek and according to strongs this is it's only meaning.
G40
ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

The versions you mention just may be your whole problem with understanding the scriptures because that word "Hagios" only has one meaning and it's saint

Sorry to hear about you're wife but I don't always read every post on a thread. I certainly hope she is feeling better.

Yes I see you tried but your answer doesn't hold water.

It couldn't be more false when you try to tell me the bunk about the word "hagios". Having the meaning of angles because as I just showed you that Idea just does not match strongs dictionary.
MB

 

Post tribers all seem to think the Rapture and the second coming are in the same event. What you aren't considering is that they are in fact two separate events at completely different times. At the rapture we meet the Lord in the air. The second coming the Lord's feet actualy touch down on the mountain top. This is why there are two not just one resurrection
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. This is why there are two resurrections

MB