OK. So I had some spare time this afternoon and I'm caught up.. here we go.
You assume I haven't read the scripture in question before? You are getting all hung up on the very word 'tribulation' which is throwing everything else off. Paul refers to it as the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5), and specifically tells believers NOT to be concerned about this time period. The day of the Lord quite simply means Gods wrath being poured out against unbelievers, not believers (Is a. 13, Joel 1, 2, Obad. 15-20, Mal. 4), and salvation of His own (Isa. 27, Her. 30, Joel 2, Obad. 21) (The OT sets the understanding, and the NT further expands on it.
I’m assuming no such thing. I said “reread that passage” that assumes you’ve already read it before. Don’t be so defensive. And yes I’m focused on the word ‘tribulation” because most people mistakenly believe it is a 7 year period of time set apart in which God pours out His wrath on the world in judgment when that is NOT what scripture teaches. Go back to my OP and reread what I posted regarding “tribulation” it is ALWAYS used referring to
persecution and suffering NOT divine judgment. The “Day of the Lord” is when Christ actually appears and does bring judgment. Paul doesn’t tell the Thessalonian believers to “not be concerned about it” he says the opposite! Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 1 Thess 5:6
He doesn’t say “don’t worry about it; you won’t have to worry about it.” He says “Watch!” Be sober so it doesn’t come on you like a thief!
So when you tell me the great tribulation has nothing to do with Gods wrath against unbelievers, and is meant as a time of persecution of believers, you couldn't be more wrong. Also, when the bible states we are not appointed unto wrath, and the fullness of His wrath against us was placed on Christ on the cross (John 3:36), it DOES refer to the great tribulation, I.e., the day of the Lord. I am in Christ, and He in me. He will not be put through a second round of the Father's wrath, and you can take that to the bank.
I agree that we as believers will never suffer God’s wrath. Christ paid it all absolutely! But the “tribulation” and the Day of the Lord are not synonyms. The wrath that we are spared from (1 Thess 5 for example) is the destruction (eternal death) that comes upon unbelievers. It has nothing to do with what we go through in this life. We are 100% spared God’s wrath but Jesus Himself said that we would suffer tribulation. John 16:33
I know this wasn't addressed to me, but these charges are becoming quite tiresome. Anyone can copy and past a ton of scripture, what does that prove, that someone has a better understanding of it? You should be able to defend your position FROM scripture. Not posting a verse along with a statement does not mean we are just making things up, it means we know the truth that we already gleened from the passages.
I really don’t understand what you’re saying here. We should argue our understanding of scripture
without using scripture? If you don’t have any scripture to back up your beliefs then frankly why should I or anyone else listen? This reminds me of what Luther said at the Diet of Worms:
“Unless I am convicted of error by the testimony of Scripture or by manifest reasoning, I stand convicted by the Scriptures to which I have appealed, and my conscience is taken captive by God…”
It's not that I'm incapable at all Bosley it's that your incapable of understanding the plain reading of scripture. Like Your lack of explanation of;
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
How can Christ come with all His saints if they are still on Earth when He comes?
Please explain this if you really know what you are talking about.
MB
I’ll ignore the personal attack and go to the scripture:
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Two simple solutions:
First, the world translated saints is not always translated so, in fact other translations render this passage as his holy people (NLT) and his holy ones (NIV). The Greek word here is actually even used to describe Jesus himself in 4 verses! So this could easily been seen as a description of Christ coming with his angles (unless you think that Christ would be accompanied by Unholy angels) which correlates perfectly with 2 Thess 1:7 and Jude 14.
Second, even with the post-tribulation rapture we will actually return to earth WITH Christ. 1 Thess 4:17 says that we will be caught up “to meet” Christ in the air. The phrase in Greek was used referring to the custom of a group going out to meet an important official (King for example) then accompanying him back to the same city they just left celebrating the officials entrance into their city.
That is what will happen after the tribulation: Jesus appears in the Clouds, we are caught up to meet Him and be glorified, then return to the earth WITH Him to rule. That verse is entirely consistent with post-trib.
A consideration.
Jesus in Matt 24-25 stated that the tribulation would be like in the days of Noah. The saved in that case were taken away (enclosed in the Ark) while the guilty left to be judged by the flood. This is the same as when Sodom was judged.
If Jesus wanted us to believe that the saved of the church age would be around to witness the tribulation judgements but be protected from it, a better example for Jesus to compare the tribulation to would have been the Israelites in Egypt at the Passover.
We know that there are some believers in Christ who become martyrs during the tribulation. Their death is not in judgement. The Bible does not identify them as part of the Bride of Christ. Their souls will be waiting for the entire group to be gathered under the altar rather than being in the place Jesus is now preparing for his bride.
The Ark is a great example of God preserving his people through judgment. Noah was persecuted the entire time he was working on the ark, but then the time for judgment came and God spared Noah and his family, but they were still in the world. There is no reason whatsoever to assume God must remove His people before He can bring judgment. Of course I disagree with the assertion that the tribulation=judgment.
Why do you believe these believers that are martyrs during this “tribulation period” aren’t part of the Bride of Christ? They are called Saints throughout Revelation, there is no difference between them and any other believer martyred
Another way to look at tribulation is to consider it an aspect of Christian living, i.e. sharing in the suffering of Christ. Thus at least an aspect of tribulation has nothing to do with the wrath of God but rather the persecution by the world toward those presenting God to sinful humanity.
Another aspect is that hardship helps transform us into more Christ-like servants, i.e. comforting others going through a similar experience of difficulty.
Then there is the increase in tribulation preceding the return of Christ, such that suffering will increase, i.e. Matthew 24:21.
:thumbsup:
You know, in post 2, I said I was asking questions for learning, not debating degenerating into insults about each others intelligence. To sum up the thread,
You do not know what you are talking about
No you do not know
Yes I do, you do not understand Scripture
on and on and on, like a bearing going out on a motor.
This is the exact reason I made the above opening statement.
That seems to be the common script of the threads around here…
Maybe you can answer how angles got to be saints. You see that is Bosley's position and claim so he can avoid the fact scripture says very plainly that Christ will return with all His saints he will not answer because he knows he is w r o n g .
Actually I didn’t answer back because the 12th was my birthday and the 13th I spent all day in the ER with my wife… but you know, thanks for caring…
Anyway, I answered your claim regarding 1 Thess 3 above.
How about you do you know How christ can return with all His saints when a lot of His saints are still here on Earth according to this false doctrine of post tribulation rapture.
MB
You might want to be careful with throwing around claims of false doctrine since historic premillenialism has that name because it was the almost exclusive teaching for the first 300-400 years of the church. Then Amillennialism (Which also holds to a post-trib coming and rapture/resurrection) became popular and was dominate until the mid 1800s. That’s when pre-trib beliefs FRIST appeared! So be careful calling the post-trib gathering of the saints “false teaching” when it’s been the dominate teaching in one form or other for 1800 years.
