Featured Airs

My word Icono, we should elevate you to sainthood:laugh: You have attained that level that we all strive for but most never get to. However what Luke is alluding to (correct me if Im mistaken) is that there are too many "non-genuine" people running around playing saint & disavowing sinners & I would say he has a longing for some honesty & genuineness . I would also assume that a pastor in Luke's position always has to be on his guard.....for example, he cant go to a local bar with a friend & have a beer for fear that some self righteous so & so will start a gossip column about him, or heaven forbid he should utter a "Expletive Delete" .... so next thing is.....you know what filthy cuss word the Pastor said. He is right, couldn't you just give it a rest....we are all human & all prone to sin, right.

On another thread, Matt Black showed that the guys @ his church go out for a pop or two on Thursday nights.....with the Pastor. Sometimes they even play pool (snooker) sometimes they do other things together. So why do Americans feel the need to be "Holier than Thou" ?

 

I try to make life at church the same as work, and the same as at home. I refuse to go to church playing a part. I am not an actor by profession, and refuse to be one at church. Part of the problem is that there is so little time at church, three hours a week at most.

The smiles people give me at church remind me of the smiles on Lawerence Welk singers, they are super glued to their faces. I believe if it were possible to beat a Lawerence Welk singer into oblivion, they would still have that smile on their face with closed eyes.

Not all, but many church people put on a facade. The result is that there is a big disconnect between reality (real life lived day by day) and the atmosphere at church. Information exchanged at home or work becomes dangerous at church when half the congregation is drooling to hear something new on someone.

It is really a tragic thing, because we should be closer to our church members than anyone else except family. However, when all play the "I am Perfect Game" those relationships never develop. It would also help if the average nose length was not three feet. Church members should know our hopes, dreams, fears, faults, the totality of us, but without the judgemental crap and their phoney exterior.

We set up non Biblical dumba** rules, like no dancing, no lottery tickets, no secular music, no stock markets, no TV or movies, and the like, and never tell anyone about Jesus. I think the next time someone tells me they have never smoked one cigarette or drank one beer in their lives, I am going to throw up all over them. It escapes me why I am always informed of facts like that. Maybe God will have an extra point on their crown.

 

I don't pretend anything, and if you knew me you would know that is true.

All I am saying is starting a thread to tell people how depraved you are is a form of false humility.

I am going to take a shot at Calvinism, because it is true, a lot of what you folks profess is just false humility. You will claim that non-Cals are "man-centered" and that our belief in free will exalts man, while your doctrine is humble, exalting God only. Pure BULL. Nothing but false humility.

You guys think that going around telling everyone how depraved you are makes you better and more honest than others. It is actually a form of prideful boasting.

I don't expect you to get it, you guys are oblivious to your own behavior.

 

For the last time, I'm not a Calvinist. By the same token, I dont see anyone here saying anyone is depraved. What I believe the OP is actually saying is that people need to keep it real instead of ...as he (Luke) says...."Putting on Airs". Funny how you are blind to the whole content of the thread!?! Or perhaps your a bit like Rom Emanuel, who believes he can use mostly any controversy & tragedy to his advantage. Maybe what you really are is obsessive & compulsive. You appear to never stop the argumentation between Calvinists & Non-Calvinists.....and truthfully, its glaring!

 

I understood the OP. But I think Luke is wrong that EVERYONE in church is putting on airs. If that is what you are doing, something is seriously wrong. You should be able to be yourself in church, or rather, you should act the same way outside church. That is what I attempt to do. Now, I fail at times, but I try to live the same way all the time.

Telling everybody how wicked you are is pretty useless. Do something about it, try to live each day for God.

 

Look, he is a pastor & he sees alot of hypocritical people ....if he vents here & people give him advise as to how to deal with those situations, then let it be...some good might come out of it. I also seriously doubt he is contradicting everyone thats walking into church....rather, he is painting with broad brush strokes.

At least the guy isnt sweeping problems under the rug. I think its our duty as bretheran to instruct him...as we are all human.

 

Well, I see this all as a very negative view of church and your fellow believers. I love my church and I love all the people that go there. I don't spend my time worrying about how perfect they are. Sure, some have problems, who doesn't? But that is not what I focus on.

I heard a preacher once say that if you are sitting here thinking, "Boy, that fellow next to me really needs to hear this preaching today.", then you have the wrong attitude. We should be thinking "I" need to hear this preaching today.

If folks would worry about their own behavior and quit judging those around them, the church would be a lot better off.

 

Thats your opinion....everyone has one :laugh:

 

Earth, Wind & Fire

Too late EWF....I have already be raised up to sainthood as my citizenship is already in heaven.

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

No.....actually none of us has as Paul Himself instructed us.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

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I think I understood the OP.
EWF.... most times we agree on most things, and Luke 2427 also. That being said, there are times we can partially agree and still have differences.

As brothers we can also disagree strongly on a topic to a point where we can even oppose each other on an issue ...despite all the other areas we agree on. This might be one of those times.

This thread opens up several issues of importance to the churches we serve in.My response before was short because i still had to drive...but i am where i need to be for now. All of the points can be discussed ,or expanded upon.
if you feel you can offer me correction...show where i am departing from scripture....I will look it over:thumbs:

This is a slightly different question dealing with christian liberty for the most part,and yet some of it deals with this thread.

EWF- Let me ask you...why would a Pastor or chrisitan want to go to a local bar? This worldly macho image of having a few drinks with the guys is very suspect., this Image is put upon us by madison ave. Jesus sat with sinners but i cannot recall the text where he was saying is "drink" was less filling, or had more taste.and bragging about how He could "hold His liquor"
I am not a legalist however those who flaunt their liberty are in sinful disobedience. I do not see it as being defensible from scripture.

Actually Heaven does forbid foul, unwholesome speech.God makes a distinction between that which is Holy and that which is profane.

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

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EWF...while we all sin we are not told anywhere that it is okay to sin.In fact we are commanded to Mortify sin[put it to death, deprive it of power.
There are dozens of COMMANDS...not suggestions about the fact that we are Elected and called unto Holiness.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
This is a serious verse....not just filler on the page.

I reject this as a poor testimony and part of the problem , not part of the cure. They could fellowship at a diner for breakfast, or go fishing as a group also. It's not like it is there last chance to ever see each other.

No one is trying to be holier than thou. Just trying to obey the scriptural call to holiness of life.We are called to it.

It is always much easier to sit back and be critical of this or that, but when we focus on what the scripture focuses on it is a different story.

 

saturneptune

That is what I was trying to get at in my earlier post;
16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

This is where without a local church practicing biblical hospitality it becomes next to impossible to get to know the saints properly.

there are many reasons for this, but usually it is covering sin.Sometimes the facade is a poor attempt to cover up a hurting believer...so they put on the happy face...like tears of a clown.

I believe this is the reason that God made talebearing one of the ten commandments. The church should be caring for one another and helping.Many do not study the commands and laws given to christians.
That is why in part many a church is disfunctional and drifts into sin .

Exactly....but this shows the level of disobedience that many have clothed themselves with. When they set aside lawful commands given by God, they substitute the man made rules you spoke of.
[like no dancing, no lottery tickets, no secular music, no stock markets, no TV or movies, and the like]

However, when all play the "I am Perfect Game" those relationships never develop. It would also help if the average nose length was not three feet. Church members should know our hopes, dreams, fears, faults, the totality of us, but without the judgemental crap and their phoney exterior.

 

So you have become an Idealist then..... would you say then that Christ was an Idealist?

 

EWF,
Can you show how I am being an idealist.Take any of the scriptures I offered and show me how the commands..are not commands, but OPTIONAL

Are you saying that the lawful commands...are all unattainable, so we need not even try to obey?

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you

When Paul said he pressed toward the mark of the high calling...the language he used was used of an olympic runner who strained with every fiber of His being to reach the finish line first.It implied maximum effort.

Having you ever seen a book in a christian book store that was called...
Just coasting for Jesus? or..How not to take sanctification seriously?

I do not believe OSAS. I believe in the biblical perserverance of the saints;
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )

2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

If a professed christian is not in the "way of holiness"...he is not God's child.

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

 

Icon...
While your contribution to this thread is not exactly fun to hear, it serves as a wonderful counter-balance to where this thread could lead if not reigned-in. The OP brings up a good point. I don't think you disagree with the notion that it is a problem, but, your posts serve to keep us from pointing to a real problem in the Church and using that problem as an excuse to sin or be unfruitful.

What you are saying isn't exactly fun to hear....but, if we took this thread and RAN with it...pretty soon, we might start making excuses for sin. I appreciate your providing a balancing view from a Scriptural standpoint. :wavey:

However...we must acknowledge that the Church DOES greatly hamper itself largely because people feel unwilling to admit their weaknesses and faults to one another, and deep fellowship is hampered if not impossible too often. The OP makes a very serious point that needs to be addressed.

 

HOS,

I think the ideas and issues in this thread are life and death serious.I just tried to expand on it a bit...anyone of these issues can almost be examined as an issue in and of itself.

For church life to be Spirit filled and vital....we all must be filled with the knowledge of God:
13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

I believe we fail here as local assemblies, if indeed we are failing.If we are not filled with {goodness} and gospel motives in seeking to please God, we cannot correctly admonish anyone biblically.The biblical knowledge will not be up to speed. In Acts they were all about scripture as was our Lord.

If someone comes to a christian with a serious issue and needs a word in season,and the other person has his head filled with sportscenter, or cartoons, or anything else other than scripture...what do they have to offer???

 

I don't know many people like that, but I've run into one or two, and I have to confess it makes me a bit uncomfortable, sometimes.

I've stewed about why.

It's either because I'm not very spiritual and such talk makes me nervous.

Or I'm pretty spiritual and humble, and I don't pepper my conversations with such. So maybe I ought to. Or maybe he ought not to.

 

So you cant see how you are being idealistic (Shakes head) ....you cant see how men wouldn't feel more comfortable having a beer or two in order to loosen up & let their hair down. OK, got it.....you strive to be a Puritan.....only they went away buddy & your trying to be a throwback. & of course we can count the minutes till the legalism bus drives up to the driveway & plants the (IM RIGHT & YOU ARE WRONG) flag in the front yard.

But you didnt answer my initial question before you went into your catechism book & pulled out a full flurry of scriptural passages..... so please focus & tell me plainly, from your own thinking process.... "Would you say that Christ was an Idealist?"