Featured How does the holy spirit pray for us?

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words
Romans 8:26 Nasb

Its NOT describing the process of speaking in tongues here!

we who deny charasmatic chaos are not unbelievers, just those who DO belive in the 'right Gospel!"

 

So the Holy Spirit prays for us without us knowing what he is praying, right?

 

No, its that the Holy spirit knows what the will and mind of God is for us, as He is God, and so will allow us to pray in the way that will be directedtowards God! He helps to guide/direct/empower us to pray, in those times when we don't know how to pray, what to seek, too weak to pray etc..

he helps us in english, not greek and hebrew!

 

I thought it says he maketh intercession for us with groanings WHICH CAN NOT BE UTTERED??

 

Not tongues!

IF he wanted to have that expressed in a fashion to say that would be charasma, the HS would have inspired paul to terms to reflect that, but he did not!

 

From a recognized Greek scholar
Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament



Romans 8:26


Helpeth our infirmity (sunantilambanetai thi asteneiai hmwn).
Present middle indicative of sunantilambanomai, late and striking double compound (Diodorus, LXX, Josephus, frequent in inscriptions, Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 87), to lend a hand together with, at the same time with one. Only twice in N.T., here and Luke 10:40 in Martha's plea for Mary's help. Here beautifully Paul pictures the Holy Spirit taking hold at our side at the very time of our weakness (associative instrumental case) and before too late.

How to pray (to ti proseuxwmeta).
Articular clause object of oidamen (we know) and indirect question with the deliberative aorist middle subjunctive proseuxwmeta, retained in the indirect question.

As we ought (kato dei).
"As it is necessary." How true this is of all of us in our praying.

Maketh intercession (uperentugxanei).
Present active indicative of late double compound, found only here and in later ecclesiastical writers, but entugxanw occurs in verse 27 (a common verb). It is a picturesque word of rescue by one who "happens on" (entugxanei) one who is in trouble and "in his behalf" (uper) pleads "with unuttered groanings" (instrumental case) or with "sighs that baffle words" (Denney). This is work of our Helper, the Spirit himself.

 

EVERYTHING I SAY CAN BE BACKED UP BY SCRIPUTRE


Tongues “Will Cease”

In 1 Corinthians 13:8 Paul made an interesting, almost startling, statement: “Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.” In the expression “love never fails,” the Greek word translated “fails” means “to decay” or “to be abolished.” Paul was not saying that love is invincible or that it cannot be rejected. He was saying that love is eternal—that it will be applicable forever and will never be passé. Tongues, however, “will cease.” The Greek verb used in 1 Corinthians 13:8 means “to cease permanently,” and implies that when tongues ceased, they would never start up again.

Here is the question that this passage poses for the contemporary charismatic movement: if tongues were supposed to cease, has that already happened, or is it yet future? Charismatic believers insist that none of the gifts have ceased yet, so the cessation of tongues is yet future. Most non-charismatics insist that tongues have already ceased, passing away with the apostolic age. Who is right?

It should be noted that 1 Corinthians 13:8 itself does not say when tongues were to cease. Although 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 teaches that prophecy and knowledge will cease when the “perfect” (i.e., the eternal state) comes, the language of the passage—particularly the middle voice of the Greek verb translated “will cease”—puts tongues in a category apart from these gifts. Paul writes that while prophecy and knowledge will be “done away” (passive voice) by “the perfect,” the gift of tongues “will cease” in and of itself (middle voice) prior to the time that “the perfect” arrives. When did this cessation of tongues take place? The evidence of Scripture and history indicate that tongues ceased in the apostolic age.

Evidence from Scripture

What biblical or theological evidence is there that tongues have ceased? First, the gift of tongues was a miraculous, revelatory gift, and the age of miracles and revelation ended with the apostles. The last recorded miracles in the New Testament occurred around A.D. 58, with the healings on the island of Malta (Acts 28:7-10). From A.D. 58 to 96, when John finished the book of Revelation, no miracle is recorded. Miracle gifts like tongues and healing are mentioned only in 1 Corinthians, an early epistle. Two later epistles, Ephesians and Romans, both discuss gifts of the Spirit at length—but no mention is made of the miraculous gifts. By that time miracles were already looked on as something in the past (Heb. 2:3-4). Apostolic authority and the apostolic message needed no further confirmation. Before the first century ended, the entire New Testament had been written and was circulating through the churches.

Charismatic believers insist
that none of the gifts have ceased…
non-charismatics insist that tongues
have already ceased.…
Who is right?

The revelatory gifts had ceased to serve any purpose. And when the apostolic age ended with the death of the Apostle John, the signs that identified the apostles had already become moot (cf. 2 Cor. 12:12).

Second, tongues were intended as a sign to unbelieving Israel (1 Cor. 14:21-22; cf. Is. 28:11-12). They signified that God had begun a new work that encompassed the Gentiles. The Lord would now speak to all nations in all languages. The barriers were down. And so the gift of languages symbolized not only the curse of God on a disobedient nation, but also the blessing of God on the whole world.

Tongues were therefore a sign of transition between the Old and New Covenants. With the establishment of the church, a new day had dawned for the people of God. God would speak in all languages. But once the period of transition was past, the sign was no longer necessary.

Third, the gift of tongues was inferior to other gifts. It was given primarily as a sign (1 Cor. 14:22) and was also easily misused to edify self (1 Cor. 14:4). The church meets for the edification of the body, not self-gratification or personal experience-seeking. Therefore, tongues had limited usefulness in the church, and so it was never intended to be a permanent gift.

The Evidence from History

The evidence of history also indicates that tongues have ceased. It is significant that tongues are mentioned only in the earliest books of the New Testament. Paul wrote at least twelve epistles after 1 Corinthians and never mentioned tongues again. Peter never mentioned tongues; James never mentioned tongues; John never mentioned tongues; neither did Jude. Tongues appeared only briefly in Acts and 1 Corinthians as the new message of the gospel was being spread. But once the church was established, tongues were gone. They stopped. The later books of the New Testament do not mention tongues again, and neither did anyone in the post-apostolic age.

Chrysostom and Augustine—the greatest theologians of the eastern and western churches—considered tongues obsolete. Writing in the fourth century, Chrysostom stated categorically that tongues had ceased by his time and described the gift as an obscure practice. Augustine referred to tongues as a sign that was adapted to the apostolic age. In fact, during the first five hundred years of the church, the only people who claimed to have spoken in tongues were followers of Montanus, who was branded as a heretic.

The next time any significant tongues-speaking movement arose within Christianity was in the late seventeenth century. A group of militant Protestants in the Cevennes region of southern France began to prophecy, experience visions, and speak in tongues. The group, sometimes called the Cevennol prophets, is remembered for its political and military activities, not its spiritual legacy. Most of their prophecies went unfulfilled. They were rabidly anti-Roman Catholic, and advocated the use of armed force against the Roman Catholic church. Many of them were consequently persecuted and killed by Rome.

At the other end of the spectrum, the Jansenists, a group of Roman Catholic loyalists who opposed the Reformers’ teaching on justification by faith, also claimed to be able to speak in tongues in the 1700s.

Another group that practiced a form of tongues was the Shakers, an American sect with Quaker roots that flourished in the mid-1700s. Mother Ann Lee, founder of the sect, regarded herself as the female equivalent of Jesus Christ. She claimed to be able to speak in seventy-two languages. The Shakers believed sexual intercourse was sinful, even within marriage. They spoke in tongues while dancing and singing in a trancelike state.

Then in the early nineteenth century, Scottish Presbyterian pastor Edward Irving and members of his congregation practiced speaking in tongues and prophesying. Irvingite prophets often contradicted each other, their prophecies failed to come to pass, and their meetings were characterized by wild excesses. The movement was further discredited when some of their prophets admitted to falsifying prophecies and others even attributed their “giftedness” to evil spirits. This group eventually became the Catholic Apostolic Church, which taught many false doctrines, embracing several Roman Catholic doctrines and creating twelve apostolic offices.

All of those supposed manifestations of tongues were identified with groups that were heretical, fanatical, or otherwise unorthodox. The judgment of biblically orthodox believers who were their contemporaries was that all those groups were aberrations. Surely that should also be the assessment of any Christian who is concerned with truth. Thus, we conclude that from the end of the apostolic era to the beginning of the twentieth century there were no genuine occurrences of the New Testament gift of tongues. They had ceased, as the Holy Spirit said they would (1 Cor. 13:8). The gift of tongues is not for today.

Adapted from John MacArthur, Charismatic Chaos (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1992). For a fuller treatment of the gift of tongues, consult this resource.

 

I did not say it was tongues!
I said when the Holy Spirit prays in this manner the one that he is praying for does not speak or know what to pray for, right? It is the Spirit that makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God!

 

Well you need to get passed 1 Cor. 1:7-8! Because it says that the church was to come behind in NO gift..WAITING ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!
You need to get your doctrine from the Bible and not so called scholars that do change their doctrine over time as the Holy Spirit shows them truth!

Also you can not disprove the real by claiming false is out there!

 

Not proof for personal prayer tongues, not baptism in the HS, so what were you citing this for?

 

th DRS macArthur and Roberston have more understanding of this area from the biblcal perspective than ALl charasmatic pastors/teachers/prophets/apostle put together!

 

I am saying it is proof for prayer language it seems plain to me that there is no utterance involved!
So does the Holy Spirit just pray the perfect will of God without using our vocals? Is this what you are saying about Rom. 8?

 

You can hide behind your teachers all you want! But I like the plain scriptures! I like to discuss what is in the WORD! Let the Word interpret itself!

 

saying that the HS intervenes/intercedes for us to the Father, as he knows the mind and will of God towards each pray request, and that he enables/helps us in our prayers!

Until 1905, NONE in the church viewed it as being personal prayer language here!

 

HERE IS A VERSE NONE OF YOU WHO BELIEVE TONGUES ARE FOR TODAY CAN GET PAST.....this verse alone proves you all are wrong!

1 Cor 14:22...So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

 

I meant to say it is NOT proof for prayer language in that post!
Romans does not say he helps us pray! It says he prays for us!
I am not saying it is tongues!

 

I thought I addressed this already! So if it is a sign to unbelievers why would it cease! We still have unbelievers today!

 

Because we have the full revelation of God in the BIBLE, we need nothing else to point others to Christ. The speaker spoke in tongues and everyone heard the message in their own dialect.

The gift of tongues was a KNOWN language (except for the "unknown" one which was pagan) that AUTHENTICATED the speaker that he indeed was speaking from God.

That was pointed out in many of my post already

 

Sooooorry....

....didn't mean to toss in a wrench of any kind LOL

As for the hippie movement, I tend to think you are unto something, but, us CAlifornians aren't the only ones with hippies. In fact the mid west is always ten to 20 years behind the east and wet coast, so they got religion [hippie style] somewhere in the 80's or 90's LOL

As for a definite sign of the end of times, none need look any further than DC. and all of the earthquakes in the depths of the ocean.

I'm blessed to know you respect my opinions. That isn't true with others, but I appreciate your support, and I feel the same of you....

Shalom, my friend. Looking forward to meeting you in person in heaven! :thumbs:

 

More of the same....

.....you call what we believe in - Babble! Well this is babble too! Try doing something on your own, like thinking, and not reposting someone elses work. I'm sure if you took the time to REALLY study this topic, you may be surprised and even changed.

Again, who is being harmed by prayer closet prayers and songs? Where does the Bible say we can't pray in tongues in our own prayer closet?