RC Sproul and Alcoholic Beverages

[evangelist6589]

It is a gross oversimplification to state that "fundamentalists" are just people who stand for the fundamentals of the faith.

99% of the SBC stands for the fundamentals. Do you consider them to be "fundamentalists".

The Bible does NOT clearly teach abstinence and no person with half a brain for hermeneutics thinks it does.

On the other hand the Bible DOES record God telling his people to by strong drink and rejoice before the Lord if they wish.

The Bible DOES teach that God MAKES THE WINE which makes merry the heart of man.

The Bible DOES show the Second Person of the Godhead drinking wine- the kind that would make the Pharisees call him a drunkard.

Pharisees are still missing it today- but the Pharisees of today are fundamentalists.

You attacked John MacArthur in a previous post, but he himself argues your point. However IFB are not teaching another gospel, they are just legalistic in some areas.

 

[Herald]

Those who oppose drinking alcohol do so based on extra-biblical reasons. Even when they use scripture it is to support their view that drinking is bad, not prohibited. What they do not have is a biblical command. That is what makes this entire discussion difficult. If someone is not willing to submit to the clear teaching of scripture then what else can be said on the matter?

 

[evangelist6589]

Those who oppose drinking alcohol do so based on extra-biblical reasons. Even when they use scripture it is to support their view that drinking is bad, not prohibited. What they do not have is a biblical command. That is what makes this entire discussion difficult. If someone is not willing to submit to the clear teaching of scripture then what else can be said on the matter?

Some of them will admit to that, yet not allow anyone whom drinks in moderation to be a member at their churches, or on staff at their schools. Odd is it not?

 

[evangelist6589]

On another note

The churches that have made such a big deal of this issue whom I have contacted not one of them got back to me. I think that they do not know their arguments well enough to debate someone whom disagrees yet at the same time will label me divisive, and argumentative for disagreeing with them!!!!

DARN FOOLS!!! HYPOCRITES!!!!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The churches that have made such a big deal of this issue whom I have contacted not one of them got back to me. I think that they do not know their arguments well enough to debate someone whom disagrees yet at the same time will label me divisive, and argumentative for disagreeing with them!!!!

DARN FOOLS!!! HYPOCRITES!!!!

I am hoping your not contacting your wifes church.....you will be divorced in a month! NO NO NO!!!

 

[Aaron]

No sir, it is hard for you to see it through your ignorance.

You cannot make your brother to offend if what you are doing never reaches him in any way- obviously.

Now there's the spirit. Lead a little secret life of fleshly indulgence. It's a gift from Gawd! :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now there's the spirit. Lead a little secret life of fleshly indulgence. It's a gift from Gawd! :laugh:

And you make that sound like a bad thing. :laugh:

 

[Herald]

Some of them will admit to that, yet not allow anyone whom drinks in moderation to be a member at their churches, or on staff at their schools. Odd is it not?

I remember my days as a fundamentalist Baptist. My church taught that drinking was a sin. The funny thing was the reasons given were not from scripture. Instead the argument was made using all the negative aspects of alcohol. When I started to challenge the whole of fundamentalism I started asking questions like, "What is the biblical command for abstaining from alcohol?" There was none. I had one person tell me that a biblical command was not needed. All I had to do was open my eyes to the world around me. Wow. That is egalitarianism.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Some of them will admit to that, yet not allow anyone whom drinks in moderation to be a member at their churches, or on staff at their schools. Odd is it not?

Not at all....remember who you are talking about {and be forewarned}

 

[evangelist6589]

I am hoping your not contacting your wifes church.....you will be divorced in a month! NO NO NO!!!

Not them but churches many states away.

 

[evangelist6589]

I am hoping your not contacting your wifes church.....you will be divorced in a month! NO NO NO!!!

But one has to wonder why cant one be a Berean and look at what the Bible says? If one has to be so divisive and attacking towards me and AFRAID of what the Bible says?

Are those that disagree with me and Luke AFRAID of us?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not them but churches many states away.

OK....pardon me & remember it is Friday!

 

[evangelist6589]

Not at all....remember who you are talking about {and be forewarned}

Yes there is a great deal of FEAR by those that cannot see what the Bible says on this issue.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But one has to wonder why cant one be a Berean and look at what the Bible says? If one has to be so divisive and attacking towards me and AFRAID of what the Bible says?

Are those that disagree with me and Luke AFRAID of us?

Ahhhh..... NO. But they have their own point of view. remember its a view from a point. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes there is a great deal of FEAR by those that cannot see what the Bible says on this issue.

Dont you remember (or maybe you were to young to recall) Y2K.

There were alot of professing Christian that got suckered into the fear of the sky falling.

Its a different millennium ..... but the same God. Then Id tell them to read John 3:16 & trust in God. Still allot of people prepared for doom's day. Image their surprise! A ton of people at Home Depot the next day, I can tell you.

 

[Luke2427]

Actually here is how Mitchell began his sentence......"As a former drunk I know what it takes" & indeed, he probably does.

Bull. If he died of alcohol poisoning five times and was revived each time that would not make a buzz equal drunk.

That's ridiculous.

A buzz is a buzz and drunk is drunk. You don't get to SAY they are the same thing if they are not.

Saying a buzz is drunk is like saying when a man takes off his suit coat he is naked.

It is utterly ridiculous and I suspect the only reason you think there is any merit to such nonsense is a emotional link that you have to his claiming to have been a drunk since you have dealt with that in your own home.

Emotional links do not equal facts.

Buzz is not drunk.

And the most important point here is that Mitchell JUST STATED IT WITHOUT SUPPORT like is God Almighty and thus does not HAVE to make a case for it.

Like God himself he can just SAY it and the saying of it makes it so because it came from HIM.

And I apologize Rev if I'm oversimplifying or if I appeared to insult you....didn't mean to. But some here don't have a grasp on all that goes on & you did kinda volunteer....but if I'm off base let me know.

Look man, I was raised in a drunkard home. I have drug my vomit covered mother in the front door more times than I can count. My father died a drunkard homeless on the street. I signed the paperwork to shut down life support.

I HATE- literally HATE the emotional bull that people spew out like it changes facts and like their experiences forces everyone to give way to them.

I don't care if drunkenness killed your father, mother, all your brothers and sisters and cousins and wife and children- IT DOES NOT MAKE A BUZZ EQUAL DRUNK AND IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT DRINKING IN MODERATION IS COMMENDED BY GOD IN THE SCRIPTURES!!!

Just trying to show that there can be some serious consequences to encouraging a weaker brother to drink without totally understand whats going on in their head.

So what moron on EARTH ENCOURAGES a weaker brother to DRINK?!!?

Not me.

How does that statement have anything to DO with drinking in moderation?

 

[Luke2427]

Do you deny that there were baptists before the reformation (brake with Rome)?

If you can make "baptist" mean anybody who dunked believers regardless of the fact that none of the distinctives that make a baptist and baptist exist in those people- sure, there were a very few.

But every reputable historian on earth knows the John Smythe was the first Baptist and that modern Baptists trace their origins to his General Baptists and Spilsbury's (who came along a few years later) Particular Baptists.

 

[Luke2427]

Middle of the 19th century, eh?
Is Albert Banes early enough for you?
He was an American theologian that lived between 1798 and 1870
I find his commentary on John 2:10 very interesting. Did Christ make fermented wine or grape juice?

That is the middle of the 19th century genius!

 

[DHK]

Chapter and verse please? You make lots of arguments from history and logic but very little arguments from the scripture. Below are a few verses that teach against your view.

These are arguments from the Bible directly, so how do you explain them away? Jesus himself turned water into Wine. Sure you will say that it was not really wine, but fermented grape juice but where you there?

Were you there?

If Jesus drank grape juice then why does Ephesians 5 say not to be drunk with wine, and why not say not to be drunk with grape juice? Jesus clearly drank wine. As God he was not drunk, but he clearly did not forbid one to drink wine.

Eph. 5 is an illustration. It doesn't say Jesus drank wine.

And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. (Genesis 14:18)

There is nothing to suggest that Abraham brought forth fermented wine. It is doubtful that he did, since the word had both meanings: fermented and unfermented.

And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? (Judges 9:13)

Your proof-texting from a parable??

And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart. (Psalm 104:15)

Metaphors.
I don't use oil to make my face shine.
And it is not bread that strengthens my heart.
They are metaphors, as often are used in poetical literature like Psalms.

He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate--bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladdens the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains his heart. (Psalm 104:14-15, NIV)

Same as above.

Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. (Ecclesiastes 9:7, NIV)

A verse taken out of context, as most verses in Ecclesiastes are.
The author is being sarcastic. But unless you study the context of the book you wouldn't know that. Vanity of vanities said the preacher; all is vanity.

Jesus saith unto them, "Fill the waterpots with water." And they filled them up to the brim. And he saith unto them, "Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast." And they bare it. When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew; the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, "Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." (John 2:7-10)

This passage condemns you.
When they had well drunk. The word for "well drunk" means "intoxicated."
To be consistent with your interpretation: After they were at the point of intoxication Jesus sins by giving them more alcohol putting them well beyond their limit.

Habakkuk 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Not given to wine. (1 Timothy 3:3)

You ought to read MacArthur on this.

. What Paul was saying in Titus 1 is that no man who is at all irresponsible with that which can lead to drunkenness has any business being in spiritual leadership.
Leviticus 10:9 instructed priests to abstain from alcoholic beverages. Prov.31:4-5 gave the same instruction to princes or rulers. The principle is that anyone in a position to make significant decisions that affect a wide range of people should not be operating without full comprehension. Think how much better our churches and government would run if more leaders took this biblical injunction seriously.

(Pastoral Ministry, page 76)


In another link I urged you, especially Luke, to read, here is the argument (and it is a strong one:

“Paul’s Admonition: In the epistles of Paul and Peter, several admonitions to sober-mindedness explicitly relate to physical abstinence on which the existence and exercise of sobriety rest. This is indicated especially by the close connection in which they stand with such terms as me paroinos, enkrate and nephalios, all of which, as we shall see, refer primarily to abstinence from intoxicating wine.
“In 1 Timothy 3:2-3 Paul states: ‘Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money.’ The two terms ‘temperate, sensible’ are here used to translate the Greeknephalion andsophrona. The first, as we shall show below, means ‘abstinent’ and the second ‘of sound mind,’ or ‘sober-minded.’ ‘The order of terms,’ as Lees and Burns point out, "is instructive. The Christian overseer is to benephalion, ‘abstinent’—strictly sober in body, in order that he may be sober in mind.’ The two words occur in the same order in Titus 2:2, though the word ‘serious’ is placed between them. In 1 Timothy 3:2-3 the two words stand in close connection with me paroinon, a term which literally means ‘not near wine.’ On the significance of the latter, more will be said below.
“In Titus 1:6-8, where Paul repeats to a large extent what he said in 1 Timothy 3 about the qualifications for the office of bishop/elder, the order is somewhat different: ’ . . . hospitable, a lover of goodness, master of himself [sophrona], upright, holy, and self-controlled [enkrate]’ (v. 8). Here sophrona (‘sober-minded‘), translated ‘master of himself’ by the RSV, precedes enkrate, a term which as we shall see below, is also employed in the sense of abstinence.
“Peter’s Admonition: A clearer connection between sober-mindedness and physical abstinence is found in 1 Peter 4:7: ‘The end of all things is at hand; therefore keep sane [sophronesate] and sober [nepsate] for your prayers.’ The verb nepsate is the (aorist) imperative form of nepho, which some etymologists derive from the prefix ne ‘not’ and pino ‘to drink,’ thus literally, not to drink, while others from ne ‘not’ and poinos (for oinos ‘wine‘), thus literally, ‘without wine.’
“The basic meaning of the verb nepho, as most Greek authorities cited below recognize, is ‘to be sober, in contradistinction to being drunk.’ Thus, what Peter is actually saying in 1 Peter 4:7 is ‘keep mentally sober and physically abstinent for your prayers.’ It is not difficult to see the connection among mental sobriety, physical abstinence and prayer life. Persons who use intoxicating beverages weaken their mental alertness, and consequently either ignore their prayer life or pray for the wrong things.
“In conclusion, some of the apostolic admonitions to mental sobriety, expressed through the sophron word group, are clearly connected to physical abstinence, which determines the existence and exercise of mental sobriety…

No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments. (1 Timothy 5:23)

Grape juice (as yogurt does today) is a great remedy for some stomach ailments. Even today, in third world nations, one of the biggest problems of sickness, poison and even death, are home-made stills. It is doubtful that Paul would have been telling him to take an alcoholic beverage for a stomach ailment. I have never heard that remedy from a doctor in my lifetime.

These are arguments from the Bible directly, so how do you explain them away? Jesus himself turned water into Wine. Sure you will say that it was not really wine, but fermented grape juice but where you there? If Jesus drank grape juice then why does Ephesians 5 say not to be drunk with wine, and why not say not to be drunk with grape juice? Jesus clearly drank wine. As God he was not drunk, but he clearly did not forbid one to drink wine.

Jesus drank unfermented wine. If he didn't then John 2:11 would make no sense at all, and would not even belong in the Bible.

In Eph.5 the command is to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Concentrate on that. We are to allow the Holy Spirit to so control our lives, that even as the wine that makes a man say and do things he wouldn't ordinarily say and do, those under the influence of the Spirit will say and do things he wouldn't ordinarily say and do.

 

[DHK]

That is the middle of the 19th century genius!

Yes, early to middle. He was the first that came to my mind. I haven't had the time to look up many others.